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SR20DET Now legal for Club Racing in STU!

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  • #46
    Super touring is still very much in development imo. The powers that be are definitely afraid of some sort of over dog non-usdm engine. For that reason they automatically penalize approved engines, even ones that are exactly the same as their usdm counterparts. The class doesn't have decades of development like IT and it still has it's issues.

    In a way I'm a fan of NASA's attempts at dyno classing and data acquisition, but that has it's problems too. The two club have entirely different philosophies. NASA say's run what you brung and SCCA wants you to build to their classes. Each way has its advantages depending on the kind of person you are and the kind of racing your interested in.

    It really comes down to money (or so they claim). This isn't pro racing so they don't have the means to create pairity between every single make and model.
    98 240SX SCCA STUish

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    • #47
      Even pro racing doesn't have parity - look at F1 for the ultimate example. And at that extreme even money doesn't buy wins (see Toyota dumping billions for no titles).

      But you might as well give the new options a fighting chance instead of neutering them so much from the start because it's the safe way to play.

      It's very easy to see the power capacity of an SR with a stock turbo, and the turbo simplifies things a lot by taking out all the whiz bang engine builder tricks to a large degree. Since sticking a restrictor in front of the engine pretty much caps the HP at a level and that's that.


      It seems the rules committee would benefit from a little engineering know-how on their board. (mechanical that is - the only type that matters )
      '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


      DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
      http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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      • #48
        I completely agree, and you are definitely not the first one to argue that point, but they are dead set on continuing to do it their way and no other way. I mean look how long it took them to even consider non us engines. Things seem to move very slowly at the SCCA.

        Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
        98 240SX SCCA STUish

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        • #49
          Airflow restrictors require engines to have a great deal of efficiency behind them. look at the power differences between a "stock" engine and a fully built small block chevy both with the same Holley 650cfm carb. admittedly the carb isn't the limiting factor there, but when you get to restricted engines, there's a HUGE penalty in a poorly-built engine. It's a different world. RPM is lower and engine life is longer, but you have to maximize airflow efficiency and minimize driveline losses. GT-Lite guys literally spend thousands on the dyno tuning intakes and cams to make 200hp sucking air through a straw.

          Is that the way it *should* be? I don't think so either. But that's the way it is with these guys. Just remember, anything you spend $1,500 doing, someone else WILL spend $15,000 doing. Some of the cars I race against right now are current World Challenge Touring Cars. Some of them are retired TC cars- one of them was the Mazda 6 that Patrick Lindsey drove in 2008. That car has a $40k X-Trac sequential transmission with a $30k standalone differential, MoTec ECU, Moton shocks, etc etc etc. It was a ~$500k developed car. This is what I have to compete against.
          So some "kid" putting together a junkyard engine with new pistons and then claiming that it's not fast enough is going to get laughed out of the room. That's just the way it is.
          Originally posted by SoSideways
          I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
          '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
          '96 240SX- The Track Toy

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          • #50
            I'm not an idiot - I'm not saying just throw some off the shelf parts at it then whine. But you can play with cam timing, etc. to prove it's "about as good as it's going to get," and you took the time to run loose bearing clearances, reduce windage etc.

            It'd be backed up by math, but like I said, it seems that the rules committee is mostly run by people who don't understand the finer points of the science behind what they are regulating, so they take "spending money" as effort. Do you have to hit your hand with a hammer to prove it will hurt? Or can you use a little logic to prove what the rough result will be - (i.e. spending tons of time on the dyno tweaking little bits for 0.1% here or there isn't going to turn a 232 rwhp engine into a 275 rwhp engine).
            '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


            DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
            http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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            • #51
              What does a dressed SR20DET weigh? I'm looking at my options as well, since I'm not too happy in ITR.
              Tristan Smith
              T-Rex Racing
              SCCA ITR 300zx #56
              Former SCCA ITA 240sx #56
              IMSA RS 1978 Datsun 200sx #58

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              • #52
                I've never seen really accurate weights, and a lot of it is variable depending on where in the turbo setup you stop, and just how "non-stock" you make some components like turbo manifolds, what IC you use etc.

                It's quite a bit lighter than the KA. You could also go with something like a half counterweight VE crank to save quite a bit I weight. You won't be revving high so it'll likely be ok.
                '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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                • #53
                  for anything under GT classes, you have to use the stock crank, so that's out. You can lighten them by about 1/2lb, but that's it.
                  Originally posted by SoSideways
                  I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                  '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                  '96 240SX- The Track Toy

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                  • #54
                    I can't keep up with your crazy rules... Some stuff is ridiculously open, other stuff is locked down.


                    But yea, SR still should be lighter than a KA if you pay attention to saving weight where you can. The accessory brackets on SRs are particularly heavy IMO.
                    '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                    DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                    http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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                    • #55
                      The rules aren't that crazy when you look at the logic behind them. I have to run a relatively stock engine and relatively stock suspension geometry on a relatively stock chassis with relatively stock body lines (I can add wing, splitter, basic side skirts, and carbon hood/trunk, but I can't put on a rocketbunny bodykit..)
                      Originally posted by SoSideways
                      I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                      '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                      '96 240SX- The Track Toy

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                      • #56
                        The basic chassis rules are not that complex, but the engine rules go from near unlimited in one area to "basically stock" right next to it. I know the stock part saves money for those going all out, but I don't understand much of the "go all out" in some areas other than ease of regulation.
                        '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                        DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                        http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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                        • #57
                          Ease of regulation is a key factor. there's also the issues of keeping costs in check. i.e. crankshafts..

                          Remember that the tech inspectors at races are volunteers who come out and look at race cars on the weekends for fun. They're not paid professionals, although some of them are professional mechanics by trade. Given that Super Touring is an inclusive class (basically anything made after 1985 with an engine below 3.2L can run in STU. Anything below 2.0L can run in STL), that means there are a LOT of cars to scrutinize and a rough estimate of two bazillion engine/car combinations.

                          If you start allowing things like aftermarket cranks and stroker kits, you open a truck-size can of worms for scrutineering and regulation, and the rules that go along with it. The GT rulesets are more open, and those are the guys that are building $20,000 engines that last 3 weekends. That's what has to be done to be competitive in that class. If it's allowed in the rule, then someone sure as hell will do it, no cost considered.

                          Yes, there are many things that would easily make a KA (and SR) faster, but then you have to deal with the consequences of another car getting the same allowance. i.e. how much more power can a KA make with a bigger TB and intake manifold? now put that same allowance on a JDMtyte! Honda and it's goign to make eleventeen billion horsepowers over our tractor motor. And then how to you interpret what's legal or not? you're now individually measuring each and every car to determine legality whereas "must be stock" narrows it down a lot. Then car/engine/chassis choice becomes a paramount issue over aftermarket support. Double edged sword.
                          Originally posted by SoSideways
                          I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                          '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                          '96 240SX- The Track Toy

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                          • #58
                            I didn't say they should allow stroker cranks (although if they penalize you with higher min weights based on displacement, I don't see what the difference is), I said use a stock crank out of another version of that engine with the stock stroke. Basically put some rules like "cranks must retain stock stroke" if you want to keep it simple.
                            '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                            DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                            http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by T-Rex View Post
                              What does a dressed SR20DET weigh? I'm looking at my options as well, since I'm not too happy in ITR.
                              Originally posted by Def View Post
                              I've never seen really accurate weights, and a lot of it is variable depending on where in the turbo setup you stop, and just how "non-stock" you make some components like turbo manifolds, what IC you use etc.

                              It's quite a bit lighter than the KA. You could also go with something like a half counterweight VE crank to save quite a bit I weight. You won't be revving high so it'll likely be ok.
                              I found the site below, which has pictures of scale read outs. Everything but ex. manifold/turbo/starter. 308lbs isn't too bad, I shipped a short block less accessories/manifolds/turbo and it weighed 246lbs on a pallet.

                              http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.p...8-SR20-weights
                              VVL S14 on KW's...

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