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  • Water/Meth injection

    I saw a thread on Zilvia where codyace was saying he runs a water/meth setup. I've considered it, but it seems like most people who use it on track inject a ton and have to fill up a ton of meth/water throughout the day. That's kind of a deal breaker for me, but if I could get through a day, or half a day on a gallon or so I'd consider it. It seems like the easiest way to bump up the boost since E85 is not an option (not available around any TX tracks), and race gas is way too much $$$.


    What sort of nozzle flowrates do you guys run? Single fogger I suppose for lower flow rates?


    What about tank size? Half gallon, gallon?


    I've thought about piecing together my own kit, but the stuff like the solenoid looks hard to source.



    Also, not to be a wuss about it, but how loud are the ShurFlo pumps? I doubt I've got engine bay space to put all this stuff up there, so it'll either be around the dashboard area or in the rear seat area, or maybe even the trunk/hatch area. It'd get kind of annoying if you've got this pressure washer sound going on constantly on track.
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  • #2
    how much E85 would you plan to use in a day?
    Originally posted by SoSideways
    I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
    '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Matt93SE View Post
      how much E85 would you plan to use in a day?
      At a track with a large percentage of time at WOT I'd use up around 45-50 gallons of E85 over a weekend at my previous power level. I'd run higher boost on E85, so figure an even 60 gallons or so.

      Way more than is easy to transport when you cruise to the track with the car.
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      • #4
        Def, the pumps are very quiet, in the 12-13 years ive been running water/meth the only time Iíve ever been able to hear one was in a Audi A4 3.0TDi which was like a coffin inside it was so quiet and I could just hear the pump turn on. I doubt you would hear it in a stock SX let alone one with any exhaust work.

        With your power level, using a 250psi pump and progressive controller you would probably use a 7gpm at most.

        I use about 3qtís of regular 50/50 mix on a full race day with my car using a 12gpm nozzle, regular pump fuel (about the same as US grade 92 odd) and can support some pretty big number in high boost.

        As an idea, my IATís in low boost when the water/meth doesnít run are about 55-60f higher than in high boost

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        • #5
          Flow rates are a function of fuel flow (and thus power output), as well as how advanced the controller you're using is. I use this online calculator to put me in the ballpark:

          http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

          a good target air/liquid ratio is 80-100, divide that by your AFR to figure out the fuel/liquid ratio for an idea of how much liquid you'd use..

          I doubt you'd be able to hear the pump working at WOT over everything else, but for what its worth, we usually install them (along well as the reservoir) in the trunk/hatch area..

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          • #6
            def, out of curiosity what psi are you running now and where do you want to be?

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            • #7
              Good responses here. I see the nozzles listed as gpm, do they actually mean gallons per hour instead?

              As far as my current psi, engine is in pieces but the DET setup was about 14 psi on track and 18 on the street due to having a bone stock longblock besides cams. I have a .64 GT2871R for now, and I plan to tap it out with the VE head on the street. Back off a hair on the track. Suffice it to say it'll be a hairdryer on the street turned up.

              I notice some kits don't come with a solenoid, and seem to vary pump voltage. That seems like a bad way to do it other than maintaining pressure in the line then opening the solenoid the instant you want the meth. Especially with the pump being 10+ ft away.
              '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


              DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
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              • #8
                I doubt you'd need much to augment 92 for track use Def. I can get away with straight 94 at around 16-18 psi on Fatboy (my street SR) which has basically same setup minus the VE head. Meth is cheap compared to race gas, and can be bought in bulk from chemical suppliers in 45 gallon drums if you or others in your area go through a lot.

                Stick to 50/50 max - as anything more is flamable. You can always bring the meth 100%, and bring extra empty jugs to mix your own at the track - that way you don't have the extra weight going to and from the track.

                Check that your track/group allows meth.....it's illegal for SCCA use in all solo classes as it burns clear (safety issue).

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                • #9
                  We have 93 in this part of TX thankfully.

                  But keep in mind it's a little bit hotter than in the land of Molson. So that makes it a bit harder.


                  I've run 19 psi on the street on 93 no problem, and 22 psi on E85 (that was fun, clutch didn't like it one bit). On the track there wasn't too much headroom at just 14 psi on a hot day. That was with 8.5:1, so I'm thinking 9:1 or a bit higher might be an issue... and I want more power anyway.

                  It seems local places sell straight methanol, so that'll probably be easier than trying to source -20F windshield washer fluid in TX.
                  '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                  DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
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                  • #10
                    BTW - what does everybody think of the AEM kit? It looks pretty good, uses the same pump as everybody else, has a progressive controller etc.
                    '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                    DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
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                    • #11
                      MotoIQ really liked it, they have a few articles up about running it on an Evo. They had a few issues that seem to be fixed by a later iteration of the kit.
                      ~1992 240SX, SR20/Koni track day car
                      ~2016 M3, daily driver

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                      • #12
                        On my personal setup, it's actually controlled via the JWT ECU, with a seperate board that Clark installs. Super simple setup as well this way IMO as it's all integrated, and switchable.

                        Along with my ECU based controller, I have a hodge-podged setup using a Snow Performance Pump, (same pump as everything else), snow performance anti-siphon selonoid, and the one generic snow 1 gallon tank. Nozzle is a 375 ml/min, which IMO is plenty for 400-425 whp car.


                        In regard to the performance, my car has it SIMPLY as an additional safety device as per what my buddy Ray has run on his B14 forever. While some may tune for additional HP, we use it simply as extra detonation control...which really helps out up here in the Northeast where it often sees 75-90* and 80%+ Humidity during peak summer track days. While I have run my car without meth on track with worry, every time has been in he cooler spring and fall. I can say this though, it is a NIGHT and DAY difference with it on and off in the heat...it's literally like taking that hot and sticky track day and turning into a brisk fall morning in regard to how the engine responds.

                        Consumption wise, it typically eats a tank of full to a a gallon of water injection. It's not anything I ever worry about running out of on track, lets put it that way.



                        Also, I do run regular old big juice. Unsure on the -XX* number, but it's the regular blue junk with the alcohol/water/blue coloring. You gotta make sure you stay away from the wacky winter mix stuff. To me, the water injection/bug juice is a fair trade off for these setups. I'm too cheap to be running a real meth mix, plus I'm also not making any more power with it (although I should crank the boost with this, but I'm nervous haha).


                        Don't mind the unpainted and mess/dirty trunk, I have since painted/cleaned it up all nice and stockish. To me the trunk is a no brainer for these cars. Lines are ran right along the fuel lines...can't beat 1/4" plastic air line for these kits either ...I have spools of that at the garage.

                        *On Matt's S13, we were actually able to use the rear stock sheet metal in the trunk to secure the tank (had to drill one hole) and bolted the pump to the trunk floor, with the bolts going through near the rear crash bumper bolts...it fits just like mine, but sticks up...but the trunk bracing is in the right spot to let it fit without worry.





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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Def View Post
                          Good responses here. I see the nozzles listed as gpm, do they actually mean gallons per hour instead?
                          Sorry, I did in fact mean GPH not GPM


                          Originally posted by Def View Post
                          I notice some kits don't come with a solenoid, and seem to vary pump voltage. That seems like a bad way to do it other than maintaining pressure in the line then opening the solenoid the instant you want the meth. Especially with the pump being 10+ ft away.
                          Doesnt make much difference having used Aquamist systems vs your normal run of the mill Snow/Devils-Own/AEM kits. Aquamist is by far the most advanced kit for regular retail. Its a pitty they dont work half the time.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by turtl631 View Post
                            MotoIQ really liked it, they have a few articles up about running it on an Evo. They had a few issues that seem to be fixed by a later iteration of the kit.
                            After reading that post, We logged some back to back flow graphs using a 1000cc AEM flow gauge, the regular off shelf Devils-Own kit using only the supplied parts (IE no solonoids) had a much smoother and more consistent flow range over the AEM kit.

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                            • #15
                              I've had 4 older 1st-gen AEM progressive controllers (with the white sticker) short circuit and fail ON with almost catastrophic results (hydrolock anyone?) The newer controllers with the black sticker seem better made, and haven't given any trouble - at least so far...

                              I've also heard stories about injector-drivers failing on 1st-gen AEM ECUs, so it seems their electronics QC wasn't anything to write home about earlier.

                              Besides, wouldn't you want a MAF or IDC-based controller instead of a MAP-based controller? Allows you to keep a more constant meth/fuel ratio across the rev-range than a MAP-based setup would, no?

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