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Def's New Ride: SW22

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  • #16
    I got home before I made the post. 4 days of driving really. Worst part was probably traffic around the Chicago area and getting into Seattle where a combo of overly tentative drivers and poor traffic planning make light amounts of traffic gridlock for no reason.

    Honestly, an NA 6 cyl sounds really nice compared to a really built/aftermarket 4 banger with everything being aftermarket or fabbed. Tough to make things reliable under hard usage with all those things essentially "guessed at" and throwing away all the nice OEM engineering. Plus a swapped in 2GR-FE will make more power than all but the craziest K24 builds, and way more torque. Plus the 2GR-FE is slightly lighter than a 3S-GTE, so a bit of weight is saved.

    I'm currently debating an EFR setup with a flange welded to the stock turbo manifold. It'd be pretty sweet... or I could just try to find a CT20B and roll the dice it doesn't blow up since I should have about 90% the stuff to swap it in. An EFR 6758 will drive way better and make more power than a CT20B, but it'll probably cost about 4x as much. Thinking about it more, I think in the long term the 3S will likely be a bit of a high maintenance/not really reliable way to do remote track events, but we'll see.

    The current TD06 setup needs to go, in its current form it wouldn't last 10 mins out on track.
    '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!

    DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!


    • #17
      The tail lights were really hazy, not surprising being ~20-24 years old, so I gave them a quick polish.

      What we're working with:

      Nasty layer of plastic coming off with 1500 grit pad:

      First side polished up with 1500 grit, 3000 grit, then buffed with PlasticX:

      Transformation is pretty obvious:

      Did the reverse lights too, this is after one pass with 1500:

      All done, looks way better!

      I still need to give her a really good wash and wax. I'm actually thinking of wet sanding the car, as some prior paintwork has some orange peel and some fish eyes (probably too deep to really get out with wet sanding, but it'd be an improvement). Debating how much beautifying I want to do right now, given it needs some mechanical stuff.

      On the turbo front, I've spent some more time on the tune, and it seems to idle fairly well and drive around the street just fine. Heel and toeing is now possible too! Who would have known a super loose throttle linkage + bad AFRs off idle + really low timing would make heel and toeing feel impossible??? That said, it's still really lazy. Giving full boost to the wastegate diaphram, she's hitting 7 psi at about 4000-4100 RPM. That's.... pretty laggy.

      I'm leaning towards tossing a gen 3 CT20B with a ceramic turbine wheel on it. They're generally not rebuildable, but it'll probably tide me over for a while and not be too expensive. A part of me does want to put an EFR 6758 on it, but it's kinda hard to justify as it sits. It'd help if I could drive a CT20B car, but by all accounts they supposedly are reasonably responsive and make "ok" power (~300 rwhp is possible with the wick turned up).

      I also want to put a cat in the exhaust. Hopefully it'll also quiet it down a tad. I hope it lasts with track usage, but the smell is just gross for a car I want to enjoy on the street without worries.
      '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!

      DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!


      • #18
        Hey your tags are expired sir...........


        • #19
          Those were taken a while ago. All registered and legit now!
          '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!

          DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!


          • #20
            Looks great! That haze was nasty. Did you do that by hand? Seems too intricate for the buffer.
            ~1992 240SX, SR20/Koni track day car
            ~2016 M3, daily driver


            • #21
              I used this kit, all by hand except PlastX on the little buffer kit on a cheap drill so it's not slinging stuff around at 1200 ripums.


              The little pads make it pretty easy to do by hand on complex curves, or with the velcro holder for more flat stuff. I still need to take off the front corners and do the same thing.

              I really need to wet sand the car, just not sure how aggressive I can get since the last respray has quite a lot of trash/fish eyes in the paint. It looks good from 5-10 ft, but up close the fish eyes do stand out a bit. But I think they're so deep it would take things down to a no clearcoat state if I really "got them out," which is worse than having slight fish eyes in the paint.

              I think I'll try to do a little 1500>3000>5000>7000>polishing compounding wet sanding on the hood and see how it turns out and go from there. The good news is the car has all original panels with VIN tags, and the underbody appears all straight minus some "my first car I jacked up" damage on the rocker pinch welds.

              My thoughts on the turbo change are either a CT20B at roughly $700-800ish, and I'm running a ~20-23 yr old turbo, hoping the seals don't immediately blow up. The ceramic turbine wheel also makes rebuilding them pretty pricey, with common inconel turbine wheel + rebuild + Chinese billet compressor wheel running about $900-1000.

              Or I could weld on a T4 divided flange on the stock divided turbo manifold (almost identical dimensions to a T4 divided flange, so minor porting would match it). This is a CT26 divided to T4 divided adapter - notice how close the ports are. I'd just weld the flange and port it to eliminate another gasket that could blow out:


              The EFR would probably run $1500-1700 in parts, and fab time on the flange welding to stock manifold (not very hard), making an intake (again not very hard), and a downpipe to adapt to the exhaust (a bit of a PITA, but not terrible, probably $100-125 in parts, 4-6 hrs of cutting and welding), and making custom lines (figure ~$60-90ish).

              The CT20B if it's reliable is the easy button, but given how old they are, it seems increasingly unlikely to grab one that's going to last for any length of time. The single oil seal failing is also VERY common, and was reportedly "pretty high risk" even 10+ years ago when these things were much lower mileage and newer.

              So I guess I'm kinda leaning towards the EFR, but if I go that route, I'm going to stay 3S powered for at least a while to enjoy all that $$$ and work. Or I could maybe accelerate the 2GR-FE plans and go that route.

              The turbo stuff is cool, but the engine doesn't flow as well as an SR20DET of the same vintage, so 280-320 rwhp is "pretty aggressive", and 350 rwhp on pump gas is a pretty crazy all-out effort (I'd say about the same as 400-425 rwhp on a DET on pump). It also takes crazy boost to hit those 300+ numbers like 20-25 psi. That combined with the tiny SMIC doesn't bode well for IAT. It's not something you can track because you get one good pull before the IAT is just too high.

              Thoughts from the S chassis crowd?
              '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!

              DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!


              • #22
                Here's the dyno plot of my buddy's setup.

                And a pic. Looks nice.

                If it wasn't a turbo I would just jump right to 2GR but the small bit of purist in me says stick with the 3S.


                Last edited by e1_griego; 07-16-2018, 10:48 PM.


                • #23
                  What turbo is that?

                  I think you need some IWG EFR action in your life Def. You can be a pioneer on the forumz, yo!

                  Considering the engine already has some mods like the IM, it makes sense to take advantage and run a modern snail. any other engine mods like clutch, cams, intercooler?

                  The flanges are really close. That looks like a pretty easy port job.
                  Last edited by turtl631; 07-17-2018, 04:00 AM.
                  ~1992 240SX, SR20/Koni track day car
                  ~2016 M3, daily driver


                  • #24
                    Do the Ceramic wheels also disintegrate like the Skyline and Evo ceramic wheels of that vintage?? Both those wheels were known to simply disintegrate at anything above 14psi, so the ceramic wheel trend didn't last very long. WRC cars went away from them as well.........

                    In my personal opinion, I wouldn't purchase a used ceramic wheel anything considering the investment cost if something goes wrong. One issue and you are at the price of an EFR all in. And considering the age, the safety margin for that issue to occur is reduced to almost zero (unless you buy a rebuilt, but even then, you are close to the cost of just plunking down for a EFR).

                    The 6758 is making ~450WHP on a Miata engine at full titl. Also, they are reasonably priced at anywhere from 1100- 1300 BNIB. ~500 in supplies and you are rocking. So a few hundred over a CT20B without worrying about a failure.

                    That or get a GTX.
                    Last edited by RalliartRsX; 07-17-2018, 05:58 AM.


                    • #25
                      It's a Precision 5130.

                      Do that EFR. It's only money, right?


                      • #26
                        Haha - word, only money. Unfortunately that's in tight supplies these days.

                        I thought about something like a cheaper Borg Warner S252, but then I'd need an external gate and a non-annoying BOV (currently has a TurboXS RFL, and yes, it's RFL, fun at part throttle, full boost is annoying). Ultimately the price edges up pretty close to the cost of an IWG EFR, and then there's all the plumbing and stuff that goes with that. Plus I'm not a huge EWG fan - they're just too loud.

                        I wish an EFR 6758 T4 IWG was $1100-1300, hah! Wholesale is quite a bit above that, but it's a new turbo that should be super durable for as long as I beat on it.

                        For other mods on my car, supposedly the engine has Gen 3 3S-GTE cams in it, which are worth like 5-10 rwhp over gen 2 cams, and the huge ATS intake manifold. I think clutch is stock, and it should probably be looked at sometime soon. The 3S stock flywheel actually doesn't feel like a bad weight. It's not quite AP1 S2000 light, but it's not that far off, so if I can find a place to resurface it I might just keep running it. Pulling the trans is likely to be a bit of a bear in the car...

                        Can't ever see myself running a Precision turbo, seen too many blow up, but that powerband looks pretty usable. Any other mods on it like cams etc?

                        As for ceramic turbine wheels - the CT20B's seem more robust than the Nissan ones, where you can run ~19-20 psi of boost on them without the wheel blowing up. But any sort of minor FOD and the whole wheel gets trashed. Sometimes they do spit the turbine wheel out just running though, but not super common from what I've seen. The oil seals seem pretty fragile though, and lots have the seals go. It's a crap shoot on getting it apart without breaking the turbine wheel, so everybody goes to inconel when rebuilding. I also don't have any of the stock bits for the turbo, so that adds some cost (lines, which have these funky flanges on the turbo, IWG actuator, other bits and bobs that add up etc).

                        I'm leaning towards the EFR... I guess I need to see how much I can get for my TD06 setup. It's pretty rare from what I understand, and a fun street turbo that can do like ~350-400 rwhp, but the whole EWG thing has me a bit meh on it lasting on track.
                        '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!

                        DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!


                        • #27
                          The fact that you can sell your current setup to fund the EFR, makes it a no brainer.

                          Screw buying a used Ceramic anything. I would be uber pissed, spending a few hundred on a track day for it to blow the wheel right out the turbine housing on the first outing. That can also be considered a sunk cost with a used (ceramic) turbo.

                          Bigger picture on budget baller is to do it right once, as compared to dropping something in and worrying about it blowing and paying to fix it. Piece of mind is worth it's weight in gold....

                          Either that or buy an Inconel wheel option, drop in and go. But it seems you have already made up your mind


                          • #28
                            I would totally do an EFR over any of the "rebuilt" CT2x turbos. They don't seem to have stellar reliability, but the MR2 guys are still all about them because they drop right in and there is like 15 years of "forum hype" behind them. Most of them seem to be some minor porting of the turbine housing that's "super secret" and a cast T04E compressor wheel. Recently Chinese billet wheels have been making an appearance, and I'm sure they out perform stock 25+ year old turbo tech, but for the money, no thanks.

                            And yea, I agree on wanting to do it right the first time. I do want to temper the build a bit with this car tho'. The S13 was all about fun fab projects that also worked, but it took a lot of time to make all that stuff. This car is a bit more on the "keep the build reasonably simple so you can actually finish it."

                            I still like the idea of a 2GR swap, so I don't want to go too far down the 3S rabbit hole, but I figure I can push that off for a couple of years so I can really get a feeling of 3S power on track with a proper modern turbo.
                            '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!

                            DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!


                            • #29
                              As I mentioned before, the Mr2 crowd suffers from the same mindset of the Z32 crowd; old folks stuck in their ways. I wouldn't take too much for gospel as only a few folks have dappled in things outside the drop CT and Garrett old gen turbos.

                              You already have a IM and some supporting hardware. Make the leap and leave it at 16PSi and enjoy. 280-300WHP in a lightweight MR2 is a rocket. You can keep all the other items simple enough. Throw some tires on. Shortened Yellows (or use your housings), and go have your self a field day. The only ****ty thing about the Mr2 chassis is you cannot stuff ungodly amounts of rubber under the fenders. You may have to get creative in that department.

                              In the mean time, wring out what turbo you have now until it's time for the EFR


                              • #30
                                It's got Tein Street Basis coilovers on it, which actually aren't bad for what I'm looking for. The damping feels good for the streetable spring rates, and as long as they're run at a ride height that gives them travel they seem to perform pretty well. I'll probably eventually toss on some 8610's.

                                And yea, I hear you on not listening to the community. It's kinda disappointing with just how resistant they are to trying something new. Most of those types of people just swap in a K20/K24 nowadays, which just doesn't interest me.

                                Tire fitment is actually ok, if a bit tight on OD compared to an S chassis. A 235/40-17 and 255/40-17 setup are very doable, and that's about all the tire you need on a car like this. Just like on an S chassis, the next step is larger OD, much more $$$ 18's for just a tiny bit more width.

                                I looked at both the 6258 and 6758 EFR. The 6258 has slightly better overall compressor efficiency, but I think I'd take the tiny inertia hit to keep the efficiency up towards redline and allow a bit more room for growth. The 7163 is a bit too large for the engine unless it's been heavily worked over to keep VE up towards redline. Plus it's more expensive.

                                A T25 housing saves about $300 off the price vs. a twin scroll T4, which is kind of a crazy amount of money for just a turbine housing change, but the T25 housing brings with it the hassle of M8 fasteners unless the holes are drilled out for M10 hardware, then it's a question of fitting the nuts etc. The T4 divided probably makes more sense from a fab standpoint, but a $300 cheaper turbo has me at least considering the T25 housing.
                                '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!

                                DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!