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  • 5 lug upgrade time?

    While looking to go to bigger tires to help with my grip issues.

    I have came to the conclusion it is time to swap from 4 to 5 lugs. I am going to install a set of S14 hubs so no questions there. But for brakes not sure which route to go. We currently run "stock" S13 Frozen rotors on all 4 and Hawk Blue Race pads. Our brakes a great!!! We can run very deep into the corners for hours straight and have no problem with brake fade or overheating of the system.

    With that being said I can't keep those brakes with a five lug setup. Not sure where to go next. I have read about lots of different cheap upgrades using various Nissan stock parts. But for the price some folks are wanting for there stock parts for the conversions I feel I could just go ahead and upgrade to Wilwoods for close to the same price and stay under the Chumpcar 2x cost rule. I have also heard of using Mustang cobra parts.

    In y'alls opinion which is the best route?
    91' S13 Endurance Racecar
    Sponsored by Pallets and Crates LLC Gainesville Ga
    04' Chevrolet 3500 Tow Vehicle, 02' Dodge Ram 1500 Truck, 87' Toyota 4 Runner "Top Less",
    15' Toyota 4Runner, 07' Honda Fit

  • #2
    Going to Wilwoods is a no brainer. You'll pay back the real world $$$ difference in pads in no time.

    Do Z32 stock rears and you can run an HP+ or DTC-30 pad and it'll hold up fine back there.

    Z32 MC - I prefer 1".
    '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


    DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
    http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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    • #3
      I've got a full z brake and 5 lug setup that I'm trying to sell: f/r, ebrake, master, cables, anchor plates, conversion lines, etc. PLUS the 5 lug stuff. Shipping is a bit of a pain because of weight but we could probably figure it out

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      • #4
        Originally posted by e1_griego View Post
        I've got a full z brake and 5 lug setup that I'm trying to sell: f/r, ebrake, master, cables, anchor plates, conversion lines, etc. PLUS the 5 lug stuff. Shipping is a bit of a pain because of weight but we could probably figure it out
        If the sale doesn't pan out im in need of 5 lug and rear z32 parts.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by beasleysteven View Post
          While looking to go to bigger tires to help with my grip issues.

          I have came to the conclusion it is time to swap from 4 to 5 lugs. I am going to install a set of S14 hubs so no questions there. But for brakes not sure which route to go. We currently run "stock" S13 Frozen rotors on all 4 and Hawk Blue Race pads. Our brakes a great!!! We can run very deep into the corners for hours straight and have no problem with brake fade or overheating of the system.

          With that being said I can't keep those brakes with a five lug setup. Not sure where to go next. I have read about lots of different cheap upgrades using various Nissan stock parts. But for the price some folks are wanting for there stock parts for the conversions I feel I could just go ahead and upgrade to Wilwoods for close to the same price and stay under the Chumpcar 2x cost rule. I have also heard of using Mustang cobra parts.

          In y'alls opinion which is the best route?
          Why are you so set on upgrading to 5-lug? This is coming from someone who already went 5 lug and is on 300zx brakes all around with a 17/16" BMC and races in the same endurance racing as you. Also, the expense in choosing S14 hubs requires you to get new spindles, LCA's (or just ball joints?) and now brakes as well.

          Here's my counter thought to your 5-lug decision; if the S13 brakes are really working that great (if I would've known, I probably would've saved some money myself, and weight) and you've stripped as much as you possibly could from your car (which is free) to be as lightweight as possible, you can keep it even lighter and lower to the ground without affecting suspension geometry just by going with a 15x8 or 15x9 4x100 wheel (running 225/45 GOOD tires) and keeping the S13 brakes. That wheel and tire size is popular because of Miatas and Hondas and a 225 fit on a 8 or 9" wheel is excellent.

          The 300zx brakes actually fit under a 15" wheel as that's what I'm running. There are less wheel options in wide 15" wheels in a 5x114.3 obviously. I believe with a good alignment and good enough suspension setup (you've taken care of that with new springs) for what we run in, 225 tire is enough. We get good life out of them and we have always put up a top 5 fastest lap of the weekend in the races we've done (fastest lap obviously is the last thing to worry about in endurance racing). We went from 16" Z32 wheels running 225/50 Rivals to 15x8 225/45 wheels and lost 7lbs per corner and the car lowered an inch. That's with a cheapo Rota wheel too.

          There was another 240 at a New Jersey Lemons race that was on heavy ass XXR 17's with 245 width tires and we would noticeably out drag them out of turns and on the straights. They thought we had some kind of extra HP adder in the car, but the setups were near identical (except drivers, of course). And that was with the Z32 wheels which were 4lbs/corner lighter than their setup. Our 15" setup is 11 lbs lighter per corner than their 17's! In a car that doesn't have much power and is relatively light, adding 17" wheels with monster 245 or 255 tires, IMO, might be more detrimental.

          Something to consider.
          Last edited by gills; 08-14-2015, 10:36 AM.
          Core4 Motorsports
          CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
          S14 VQ AER Endurance Racing Team

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          • #6
            Originally posted by e1_griego View Post
            I've got a full z brake and 5 lug setup that I'm trying to sell: f/r, ebrake, master, cables, anchor plates, conversion lines, etc. PLUS the 5 lug stuff. Shipping is a bit of a pain because of weight but we could probably figure it out
            I might be interested in the complete set up if the other two sales do not pan out.
            94 Vert on long road to RR recovery
            89 Hatch DD(died in crash)
            96 S14 stock KA/MT DD (replaced 89)

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            • #7
              .
              haha, brake FS thread takeover?

              Its faster to change wheels on a 4 lug car and there are many 4 lug wheel options. From what I've read and based on what people are using on track, it seems like 4 or 5 lug are both competitive. I guess the main advantage to the 5x114.3 lug pattern, mentioned already, is the variety of wheel sizes and offsets; plus 1 extra wheel stud per wheel, hah- which helps distribute torque forces.

              As for brakes, there are so many options. It really comes down to how much work one wants to put into making the calipers work and what is available (for example: the CTS-V 240sx brake swap- which now Mazworx makes brackets for the 4 piston calipers). (http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=61985)

              The simplest, in my opinion, would be to just pick up some 5 lug rotors and use the OEM calipers.

              The z32 brake caliper option is great too because one can do just the fronts and run OEM 240sx rear calipers (similar to what the s15 comes with).

              I guess the huge cost spike comes when one decides to do both the front and the rear z32 brake setup, since the rear ebrake setup must be changed as well.

              If one does this though Z32 brake option has a lot of advantages:
              -increase number of pistons (increase distribution of force and heat)
              -Vented Front AND Rear rotors
              -Can upgrade to a larger rotor with a caliper bracket (some people have used the Cobra mustang rotors), which will help distribute heat and add some available braking power, by increasing "leverage".

              Now someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but by making the rotor closer to the size of the wheel, one gains more "leverage", allowing one to achieve the same braking power as an OEM rotor setup, but achieved with less pedal force.

              .
              Last edited by cleantune; 08-15-2015, 10:10 AM.
              "A pessimist thinks the glass is half-empty, an optimist thinks the glass is half-full, an engineer says that glass is twice as big as it needs to be"
              instagram:@cleantune ; Twitter: Cleantune@Cleantune2

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              • #8
                Originally posted by beasleysteven View Post
                We currently run "stock" S13 Frozen rotors on all 4 and Hawk Blue Race pads. Our brakes a great!!! We can run very deep into the corners for hours straight and have no problem with brake fade or overheating of the system.
                If you really love your brake setup, just run an S14 brake system. With our car, we have outgrown Hawk Blues. We have brake ducts made from the dust shields that pump air through the rotor..

                ..but we still just did this to our brakes in 9.5 hrs last weekend:


                We just don't have enough mass for the energy being dissipated by the Hawk Blues. They stop great, and we can outbrake nearly everyone.. they just don't hold up. We end up swapping calipers nearly every other race due to them starting to leak after getting so hot, and are swapping brake pads after every single race (up front, rears go ~24 hrs).

                In impound at the last race we heard a Mustang team complaining about Hawk Blues doing the same thing on their car, punching a hole through the backing plate.

                My plan is to swap to 350Z rotor and Wilwood calipers up front, we'll see how that goes. I'm still holding out hope that I can squeek S14 SE wheels on there, as Enjuku claims with the Wilwood 12.9" kit they fit, but I'll find out soon for sure.

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                • #9
                  Maybe we are just that slow or maybe the Frozen Rotors help that much.

                  We have never had an issue with the Hawk blues front or rear. We can get a full 14 hours at least out of set of fronts and still keep them around for a track day or sprint race. The rotors will last 14 hours plus a 7 or a few sprint races. At that point they are showing wear but I choose not to run them any more do to a little pedal modulation and some surface cracks that begin to appear.

                  Our rears we can get at least 24 hours from the pads and 48 or so from the rotors.

                  We are running stock calipers and Master cly. with stainless braided lines. Running Willwod 600 XP Brake fluid.
                  91' S13 Endurance Racecar
                  Sponsored by Pallets and Crates LLC Gainesville Ga
                  04' Chevrolet 3500 Tow Vehicle, 02' Dodge Ram 1500 Truck, 87' Toyota 4 Runner "Top Less",
                  15' Toyota 4Runner, 07' Honda Fit

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Why bother with Z32 e-brakes for a racecar? Not worth the hassle or ~12-13 lb unsprung weight hit.
                    '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                    DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                    http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by knate View Post
                      If you really love your brake setup, just run an S14 brake system. With our car, we have outgrown Hawk Blues. We have brake ducts made from the dust shields that pump air through the rotor..

                      ..but we still just did this to our brakes in 9.5 hrs last weekend:


                      We just don't have enough mass for the energy being dissipated by the Hawk Blues. They stop great, and we can outbrake nearly everyone.. they just don't hold up. We end up swapping calipers nearly every other race due to them starting to leak after getting so hot, and are swapping brake pads after every single race (up front, rears go ~24 hrs).

                      In impound at the last race we heard a Mustang team complaining about Hawk Blues doing the same thing on their car, punching a hole through the backing plate.

                      My plan is to swap to 350Z rotor and Wilwood calipers up front, we'll see how that goes. I'm still holding out hope that I can squeek S14 SE wheels on there, as Enjuku claims with the Wilwood 12.9" kit they fit, but I'll find out soon for sure.
                      16" wheel and 350Z track rotors... It might fit, but I really really doubt it.

                      You can estimate the radius of the outer caliper from the existing caliper info sheets on Wilwood's site. Just look up the caliper and click and on the pictures, one has fitment information.
                      '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                      DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                      http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        11.75" rotors + Wilwood dynalites fit under a Z32 wheel no problem, but require a spacer to fit under S14 wheels. I think dad is using a 1" spacer on them, but some of that is due to strut clearance with Z32NA wheels + 245 Hoosiers...

                        going to a smaller offset wheel helps in all aspects.
                        Originally posted by SoSideways
                        I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                        '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                        '96 240SX- The Track Toy

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Def View Post
                          16" wheel and 350Z track rotors... It might fit, but I really really doubt it.

                          You can estimate the radius of the outer caliper from the existing caliper info sheets on Wilwood's site. Just look up the caliper and click and on the pictures, one has fitment information.
                          I've already looked at Wilwood's site, they say for a 12.88" rotor it needs 14.28" of clearance. I measured an S14 SE inner diameter at just over 14" with a tape measure depending on where the caliper falls, so I need to just check it physically, it's too close to call without doing it.

                          The main reason I'm still holding out hope is that Enjuku claims to have tested the Wilwood kit (12.9" rotor) and say this:

                          Originally posted by Enjuku Racing
                          Nearly identical setup to our drift cars, these 4-Piston calipers will clear stock S14 wheels. No need to worry about offsets and spoke design with the larger calipers.
                          I assume the rotor offset should be pretty similar between the two?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by beasleysteven View Post
                            Maybe we are just that slow or maybe the Frozen Rotors help that much.

                            We have never had an issue with the Hawk blues front or rear. We can get a full 14 hours at least out of set of fronts and still keep them around for a track day or sprint race. The rotors will last 14 hours plus a 7 or a few sprint races. At that point they are showing wear but I choose not to run them any more do to a little pedal modulation and some surface cracks that begin to appear.

                            Our rears we can get at least 24 hours from the pads and 48 or so from the rotors.

                            We are running stock calipers and Master cly. with stainless braided lines. Running Willwod 600 XP Brake fluid.
                            I had been thinking we should make the full 12 because it seemed like we used to be able to get closer to 14 hours out of set, so I don't know if we are using them harder now or what.

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                            • #15
                              Beasely, just throwing ideas out there because it is something I would've considered had my car not come with 5x114.3 already:

                              If you really want more brake (even though it doesn't seem you need it), run full Z32 setup, but redrill the rotors at 4x100 (a little tricky since 4x100 will slighly overlap a hole on 5x114.3 pattern). Also use a B13 1.6L Sentra booster then run these 15x9 Miata wheels with 225/45's RS-3s/Rival S/R1R:
                              http://949racing.com/15x9-6ul.aspx


                              They are only 12.5lbs (my Rotas are 15lbs in a 15x8). Or don't touch your brakes and just get 15x9's with 225's and a now good alignment and save even more weight. I wish those were available in 5x114.3, but alas they're not.

                              As for the fit of a 225 on a 15x9", nothing but positive comments/results from Miata guys as well as testing from GRM magazine for having a little more stretch vs bulge in your racing tire.

                              Here's the fitment of Z32 brakes in my 15" wheel setup (front needs a ~10mm spacer with this wheel):

                              Core4 Motorsports
                              CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
                              S14 VQ AER Endurance Racing Team

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