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S13 Endurance Racing Alignment Suggestions?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Def View Post
    Turn front wheels +20 deg, measure camber, turn front wheels -20 deg, measure camber. Calculate caster.
    Exactly. That's all the long acre gauge does, but 15 degrees instead of 20.

    FWIW, 12" squares of the smoothest, slipperiest vinyl tiles from Lowes Depot stacked on top of each other with a little bit of grease sandwiched in between them make fantastic slip plates. Get a protractor and make the 15 degree limit lines on the bottom tile to reference with the top tile when measuring caster.
    Core4 Motorsports
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    • #17
      I have a set of Hunter Alignment turn plates so that is not an issue.

      How are you guys changing caster is it needs to be changed?
      91' S13 Endurance Racecar
      Sponsored by Pallets and Crates LLC Gainesville Ga
      04' Chevrolet 3500 Tow Vehicle, 02' Dodge Ram 1500 Truck, 87' Toyota 4 Runner "Top Less",
      15' Toyota 4Runner, 07' Honda Fit

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      • #18
        Originally posted by beasleysteven View Post
        I have a set of Hunter Alignment turn plates so that is not an issue.

        How are you guys changing caster is it needs to be changed?
        ooh, nice!

        Most people have adjustable tension rods. You can also slot your strut mounting holes diagonally toward the rear (gains camber as well) if you haven't slotted them already, or you get camber plates that allow to adjust for caster as well.
        Last edited by gills; 08-17-2015, 10:52 AM.
        Core4 Motorsports
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        • #19
          On our ChumpCar we run ~5 degrees of camber with modified longer control arms and slotted shock mounts, depending on the race. We typically run around zero toe up front, and very slight toe-in in the rear (1/16-1/8"). We have slightly cut springs, but plan to cut more. Right now the springs are still captive in the shocks. We still run the rear bar (in the dry), and the car is pretty neutral.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by knate View Post
            On our ChumpCar we run ~5 degrees of camber with modified longer control arms and slotted shock mounts, depending on the race. We typically run around zero toe up front, and very slight toe-in in the rear (1/16-1/8"). We have slightly cut springs, but plan to cut more. Right now the springs are still captive in the shocks. We still run the rear bar (in the dry), and the car is pretty neutral.
            5 degrees, eh? What kind of spring rates are you running?

            And, I think I've watched some of your videos on youtube. You've won a chumpcar race or two, haven't you?
            Core4 Motorsports
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            • #21
              Originally posted by gills View Post
              5 degrees, eh? What kind of spring rates are you running?

              And, I think I've watched some of your videos on youtube. You've won a chumpcar race or two, haven't you?
              Yeah, we have done reasonably well. We are certainly underpowered, and that was highlighted this last weekend with an SC300, two turbo Supras, E36s, and many V8 Mustangs. I think we still managed to have the 5th fastest lap time. During the 12 hour race we grenaded our brakes while in 1st place, and ended up 5th. The 6 hour race we ended up in 3rd.

              Our spring rates are too low, I think we only cut off enough to get about 10-15% stiffer. I was using a bathroom scale, a ruler, and the lift to squish when cutting the springs, but don't remember the numbers. Once we go to bigger wheels now I plan to cut some more. However one benefit of softer suspension is there are places I can bomb through curbing and not really upset the car.

              I would love to have a bigger testing budget.. I want unlimited hours on a dyno to ecu/header/cams to see what is most worth it and multiple sets of wheels/tires/aero to see what is fastest.

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              • #22
                Thanks for the help with the alignment suggestions they were spot on. The car was still very neutral but under-steered very little if at all. We may have had just a tad bit of over-steer coming out of some of the faster corners this past weekend at Barber. The 400/300 spring rates felt very good and the car had very little if any body roll. When the tail end would begin to step out if I let off the throttle a hair it would come straight back in line so it was very predictable. Don't know how it helped tire wear as We had the first DNF of our short racing career though due to a KA rod bolt deciding it was done and letting the #4 rod punch a nice sized hole in the side of the block. Motor was mostly bone stock with a fresh rebuild about 5K race miles ago. But we still got a good hour and 15 minutes on track at speed. Luckily we weren't to far from home and enjoyed the great museum.

                Should I still do the Larger front Roll Bar or will this only make the little bit of over-steer I do have worse?
                91' S13 Endurance Racecar
                Sponsored by Pallets and Crates LLC Gainesville Ga
                04' Chevrolet 3500 Tow Vehicle, 02' Dodge Ram 1500 Truck, 87' Toyota 4 Runner "Top Less",
                15' Toyota 4Runner, 07' Honda Fit

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                • #23
                  Stiffen the rear just a touch. maybe go up 50lb on the springs or stiffen the shocks if you can.
                  When I had corner exit problems, it was because the rear shocks were too soft and would slowly roll over through the turn until the outside tire hit the bumpstop... then it would get ugly from there. I stiffened the rear shocks and it lessened the roll a touch, which stopped the problem.
                  Originally posted by SoSideways
                  I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                  '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                  '96 240SX- The Track Toy

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by beasleysteven View Post
                    Thanks for the help with the alignment suggestions they were spot on. The car was still very neutral but under-steered very little if at all. We may have had just a tad bit of over-steer coming out of some of the faster corners this past weekend at Barber. The 400/300 spring rates felt very good and the car had very little if any body roll. When the tail end would begin to step out if I let off the throttle a hair it would come straight back in line so it was very predictable. Don't know how it helped tire wear as We had the first DNF of our short racing career though due to a KA rod bolt deciding it was done and letting the #4 rod punch a nice sized hole in the side of the block. Motor was mostly bone stock with a fresh rebuild about 5K race miles ago. But we still got a good hour and 15 minutes on track at speed. Luckily we weren't to far from home and enjoyed the great museum.

                    Should I still do the Larger front Roll Bar or will this only make the little bit of over-steer I do have worse?
                    I think a larger front bar will only help with the car's handling, but you might need a touch more in the rear too.

                    A cheap upgrade for the rear is a hollow 19 mm J30 bar if you've got a local pick n pull. It's a fair bit stiffer than the stock 15 mm bar.
                    '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


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                    • #25
                      Nice! That really sucks about the KA though. When ours blows, we're putting in a VQ30DE-K from a Maxima

                      You probably already know this, but I'll regurgitate it anyway... From a purely fundamental suspension tuning POV, a larger front bar should actually make the car understeer more since the front axle would be undergoing even greater load transfer to the outside tire than before and decreasing net overall grip due to tire load sensitivity.

                      But, where it gets funky is because 240s (and many modern sports/sporty cars) have a Macpherson strut front suspension that are not optimal for maintaining proper tire contact patch interface with the road when under roll/turning. This is why getting getting the front stiff is important (and running a minimum of -3.5* camber). The increase in load transfer is much less an issue since we are allowing the tire to work much more effectively by decreasing body roll. I'm sure there is a point where grip would start diminishing, but on our softee setups, I don't think we're anywhere near that point. Put a front bar on.
                      Last edited by gills; 08-26-2015, 07:49 AM.
                      Core4 Motorsports
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                      • #26
                        Here's my front left tire wear from about 3 hours 50 minutes total track time at Limerock Park, which only has one left hand turn and average speed of 80-85mph. 225/45-15 BFG Rival (not the S). Tire was about ~90% prior to being put on front left for this enduro. Camber at -4.0*, slightly toe'd out, 140lbs/in front springs and 30mm ARB, hot pressure apprx 36psi. Outer edge isn't toast and looks like it can go for a lot more time to me.


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                        • #27
                          On our crapcan Miata, we ran the Rivals in 205/50/15 for at least 2 race weekends (14hrs each), so at least 30 hrs on one set of them.. Just saying.
                          Originally posted by SoSideways
                          I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                          '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                          '96 240SX- The Track Toy

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Matt93SE View Post
                            On our crapcan Miata, we ran the Rivals in 205/50/15 for at least 2 race weekends (14hrs each), so at least 30 hrs on one set of them.. Just saying.
                            That's what I'm sayin!
                            Core4 Motorsports
                            CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
                            S14 VQ AER Endurance Racing Team

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                            • #29
                              We didn't really run long enough at Barber to see how tire wear would have been after all the alignment changes. At Charlotte we were running that same 36 psi hot front and 35 psi hot rear. At Barber we also had to run the Direza Star Spec do to the lack of being able to find the Rivals not in and "S" version. With that being said We were still playing with tire pressures on those.
                              91' S13 Endurance Racecar
                              Sponsored by Pallets and Crates LLC Gainesville Ga
                              04' Chevrolet 3500 Tow Vehicle, 02' Dodge Ram 1500 Truck, 87' Toyota 4 Runner "Top Less",
                              15' Toyota 4Runner, 07' Honda Fit

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by beasleysteven View Post
                                We didn't really run long enough at Barber to see how tire wear would have been after all the alignment changes. At Charlotte we were running that same 36 psi hot front and 35 psi hot rear. At Barber we also had to run the Direza Star Spec do to the lack of being able to find the Rivals not in and "S" version. With that being said We were still playing with tire pressures on those.
                                I hope BFG makes the regular Rival again. The "S" does produce better lap times but it has nowhere near the longevity. From what I can tell on a friend's Alfa Romeo Milano Chump car that had them at Limerock, a full endurance weekend might be their limit.
                                Core4 Motorsports
                                CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
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