AST 4300 Shock Dyno for S14 240sx

[mmdb]

Welp it's been a few months since I've seen my shocks, and now they're not coming back to me. After a not-so-great ordeal (I won't get into detail), AST agreed to have Performance Shock take ownership of the warranty to inspect and rebuild them. In addition I requested that Performance Shock revalve the shocks according to the 240sx suspension motion ratio, rear perches be modified to a fork type to mount on a z32 rear spindle, and make rear sphericals for the shock mount. I've also purchased a set of Noltec Performance bushings for the front lower camber arm.

According to the motion ratios they suggested I run ~7kg front and ~5kg rear. Sounds about right as I'm running TEINs HE that have the same rate and feels very good (the spring rate not the shock themselves).

NOTE: My car's spring rates are a bit different because I'm not running the traditional KA or SR motor! My car is currently running an LS1 with a weight ratio 54% up front up and 46% in the rear. Spring rates will differ from 240s with SR or KA. Just remember, softer springs give you more traction!

Anyway here's a link if you want to read my initial review about them here (http://www.trackpedia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4344&highlight=4300).

And for some dyno plots...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/ast%204300/astdynofront.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/ast%204300/astdynorear.jpg

[jbfoco]

Bruce at Psi is the man!

Thanks for sharing, good info

[mmdb]

Bruce at Psi is the man!

Thanks for sharing, good info

Oh cool you're familiar with PSI? They're really cool guys. Bruce is the man! He helped straighten out the ordeal with AST, and since they are an AST dealer I'm going to go through him if I have any issues. Aside from the shocks, they've given me feedback on my setup and Bruce spent a bit of time explaining some things to me which I'm grateful for. Another guy there, Andrew, was also very helpful. He supplied me with the dyno sheets. So far I'd recommend them to anyone who's looking for a serious setup of coils. Btw my shocks came in today, so I'll take some pictures and post 'em up later this week.

[jbfoco]

^
Sweet get some pics up! I learned a lot just spending 20min talking to Bruce. Theres about 6 of us evo track guys that use psi. Mostly ohlins and Moton stuff. I d really like to hear you input on the AST when you get out. Psi is 20 min from my house.. its nice to have a place like that in ur back yard. (-:

[floodo1]

how much are ast's roughly?

[mmdb]

they have 3 series: 4100 (single adjustable), 4200 (double adjustable), and 4300 (triple adjustable). I believe the 4100 are ~1500 (but I'm probably wrong), i don't believe they have pricing for the 4200, but that was a while ago. And the 4300 was $4800 a last year. Prices have gone up since.

Finally got them installed with the new spring rates (6kg front and 5kg rear) and revalving. Car feels so nice compared to the loaner Tein HEs I had before. The dampers are very compliant on the road through bumps, tight corners, sweepers and transitions. On the freeway the suspension soaked up all the lil' divider bumps, whereas the HEs would just crash into them. I took a spirited run down in the canyon tonight and I was playing with the dampening and each setting made a very noticeable difference. While setting it slightly harder (2 clicks in from full soft - total of 13 clicks available), the car soaked up the bumps with no problems, and tight transitions were smooth and controllable. I managed to pull 0.97gs through some turns :) Of course not soley cause of coilovers.

Anyway, enough blab from me. I think AST did a good job with the coilovers and would recommend them to anyone. Just be sure you purchase them from Bruce over at Performance Shock. He can revalve them for you however you like. (thanks arnie :))

[Def]

Do you not feel the front 6 kg/mm rates are a little low?

[mmdb]

In hard corners I do get more roll than I would like. Over all though, the car feels very balanced during steady state cornering, and on certain roads where I do my public testing (tee hee) I'm able to pull faster MPHs and higher Gs, whereas when I had 7kg and 5kg front/rear respective, I would get a bit more understeer but with less roll. I think 6kg/5kg is a good balance between amateur road racing and street usage. I used to run 8kg/6kg, 11kg/9kg, 9kg/8kg, and 9kg/6kg, and 7kg/5kg front and rear respective for all around street and track usage. I like the feel of softer 6kg/5kg cause it's easier for daily driving, and it's more forgiving when kicking out the car. Preference is a big factor, so choose whichever you might like. The higher you go, the more on-edge the car will feel and be harder to drive.

[floodo1]

damn d00d, you drive 5k 3-ways on the street? nutz!
let me know how they handle the grime after like 25k miles :)

[mmdb]

damn d00d, you drive 5k 3-ways on the street? nutz!
let me know how they handle the grime after like 25k miles :)

yeah haha! Rebuilds take a long time. Guess I'll have to keep the blown Teins. :D

[mmdb]

My not so exciting video through Ortega Canyon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wvWMewS7KY

[mmdb]

Droop length. Lots of travel.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/Misc/IMG_0669.jpg

[SoSideways]

^Nice.

Got any pics of it at static ride height? And also of it compressed?

[Umai Kakudo]

How do you like the AST camberplates? Are there any design or quality items that you don't like on them?

Vorshlag is starting to order the AST camberplates and working on making their own design camberplates for the S chassis.

I need some S14 camberplates and would like something that is better quality than Tein and the AST units look promising.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/ast%204300/IMG_9149.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/ast%204300/IMG_9161.jpg

[mmdb]

Pix below. There's a bit more travel than I expected, enough to hit the top fender liner a chew through it (it's doing that now... remember to tuck the wires higher up).

I really like the plates. I'm not sure what kind of bearings they use but they're Teflon coated and have a very tight tolerance. The plates are very strong, and other components seems very high quality. They feel a lot better quality than TEINS which I had before. I think you'll be happy with them.

I wonder why vorshlag is developing their own plates. There should be plates already available as AST aka Aragosta is made in Japan. According to vorshlag the 4100, 4200, and the 4300 (newer is 5300) are upgradable, which I assume use a lot of shared parts.

[mmdb]

propped one wheel up while doing some work on the car...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/Misc/IMG_0680.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/Misc/IMG_0682.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/mmdb/Misc/IMG_0683.jpg

[mmdb]

Also look into these...

http://performanceshock.com/images/N44020S.jpg

They allow both camber and caster adjustment. They're sold by performance shock HERE (http://performanceshock.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=41_48_44&products_id=643)

[floodo1]

Also look into these...

http://performanceshock.com/images/N44020S.jpg

They allow both camber and caster adjustment. They're sold by performance shock HERE (http://performanceshock.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=41_48_44&products_id=643)

NICE !!!!

[Umai Kakudo]

I've been talking with Vorshlag and they sent me these photos of the S14 AST Camberplates they order in.

Gallery: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/3747820_yaEmH#508210205_9nhSC

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/508210205_9nhSC-M.jpg

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/508210358_MG6Zo-M.jpg

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/508210560_2BqtV-M.jpg

Fronts are $380/set and the rears are $230/set.

I think I'll go with these for my KW V3's because


They are good quality
They have a sealed radial bearing for the tophats on the front
The rear allows the spring to be placed co-axial on the piston shaft (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets5.html) instead of flat against the camberplate like Tein

[SoSideways]

^Doesn't look like there's a whole lot of camber adjustability on the front camber plates.

The rears sound good though.

[Umai Kakudo]

Looks to be the same as Tein, et al which is good enough for my use (usually 2.5* - 3*).

[Matt93SE]

There's quite a bit more than that on my KTS, but then again there's like +5 deg of adjustment in them. way more than I ever need.

[mmdb]

I wonder if they could design one that allows caster adjustment as well. The benefit would be allowing more clearance between the front wheels and the inner wheel well while running high caster settings.

[mmdb]

Video of the suspension doing work on public roads. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5lM1Sa8Yg)

[Matt93SE]

IMO, best way to do that is to slot the holes in the strut tower. nobody made ****ola for my Maxima, so I oval'd the holes on the lower strut mount (MacP strut, just like the S-chassis), and slotted the strut tower holes for caster adjustment.

I've seen some designs use a 3-piece upper mount- bottom and center similar to the ones pictures to adjust camber. then a top plate that was slotted lengthwise and had the strut tower bolts in it. loosen one set of screws to adjust camber, another to adjust caster.


One other trick I've seen is to rotate the entire upper mount about 45deg so the slots are diagonal in relation to the normal direction. as you push them in and back, your caster goes farther positive, and camber goes more negative.

[SoSideways]

Video of the suspension doing work on public roads. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5lM1Sa8Yg)

Is that the wide angle version or the normal angle version?

I got the wide angle version, can't wait to try it out.

[djsilver]

Here's some suspension working!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n78aA52JiS4&NR=1

Bet you don't have hydraulic bump stops :p

[mmdb]

I did end up notching the top hat mounts on the chassis and got 2 degrees of more caster. I'll post up a picture later tonight to show what it is that might be a good solution.

It's a wide angle lens. Pretty fun to play around with. It's also water proof so it's a versatile unit.

Hydraulic bump stops... hmm... i confuse.

[djsilver]

Hydraulic bump stops... hmm... i confuse.

If you look in the space between his shock and the outboard upright that connects the upper and lower control arms, you'll see it. It looks like a little hydraulick cylinder turned upside down. :cool: You'll see it get whacked a couple of times when he hits the big bumps.

[mmdb]

oh gotcha haha i was thinking you were referring to the youtube video i posted. my bad. That's pretty cool how they set up that camera. Gives me ideas... hmm... :)

[a_ahmed]

So not to derail the thread, i forget the original thread, but what are some alternatives to the go pro hero motorsports wide... any HD alternatives? I honestly want to mount just inside through some suction cup (since i dont have a cage yet to have a mount on the cage).

[SoSideways]

The only HD version of these "action cameras" is the VIO POV cam, and that thing is "cheap" coming in at $650.

The next step up is the pro stuff, like the Sony HXR-MC1, but that one shoots in true high def at 1080i, so that's to be expected.

The other alternative, if you aren't into the wide angle stuff, is the Techyon XC camera. It lasts longer, can accept bigger SD cards, and shoots at a slightly better resolution.

I got the GoPro Hero wide because I wanted a wide angle lens, and in the segment of the $200 or less action cameras, the GoPro Hero is the only one that had that option. The next jump would be the VIO POV, which is a solid $500 difference, but even then, it only records at 720x480, not near HD quality...



Anyway, mmmb, I can't wait for you to take some videos on the canyon roads or the track with the GoPro Hero :)

[a_ahmed]

Thanks for the info man

[mmdb]

Ask and you shall receive! Filmed another canyon run through Topanga Canyon. Wish I had a better camera... and a camera crew... and a video editor... Welp, I got nothing but time. Anyway here it is...

Another canyon run video in Topanga (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ86h4ypcPY)

[a_ahmed]

Wrong link homie, no work. It says video doesn't exist.

This is the only recent thing I could find in your library: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5lM1Sa8Yg

[SoSideways]

Is this the one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgLHWbgrMVo

[mmdb]

That'd be the one! Thanks for posting it!

[mmdb]

Got back from a drift/grip event sponsored by JDM-Option. Very awesome event!!! I got so many runs my oil pressure dropped a few psi due to running the car lap, after lap, after lap and getting hot! Best part of the day was when I had the great honor of getting instruction from Taka Aono, one of the top drifters from Formula Drift (keep in mind I was on the grip course). From what Taka told me, his background is from auto-x, and his major merit was when he achieved an award as the national auto-x champion (i guess in japan?).

So with that in mind, I had the opportunity to have him as my instructor throughout numerous runs. Coolest part was when I let him drive the car! And boy, it was really an eye opening experience (I didn't know my car could do that!). And yes!!! - I asked Taka for feedback on what he thought about my driving style, my dampers, the car... possibly anything I can think of that would make my car and my driving better (Because this thread is about AST's suspension I keep it to the dampers)!

Taka Aono had nothing but good things to say about the dampening control and feel of the shocks. He said it was "suh-geh" (means awesome? well... something positive). In comparison, he noted that while he was instructing other drivers in their cars he felt that their suspension was bumpy, rattling, and unstable. When he drove my car the the bumps, imperfections in the road... anything that would unsettle the car, were not felt. He said the dampers absorbed the bumps and the car felt very, very smooth and controllable followed by more complements. As I tuned the car according to Taka, he could feel the difference each knob setting gave him. Again, he had nothing but good things to say about them.

Just to note on my assumptions about running softer spring rates for this car is that we noticed the amount of roll my car was getting through fast (60-70mph) chicanes. He suggested I run a higher spring rate in the front as well as the rear at about 8kg/6kg fr/rear respectively (currently 6kg/5kg f/r). Fortunately my prior roll center adjustment as well as the sway bar setting alleviated much of the roll, but ultimately I will need higher spring rates (keep in mind I have an Ls1 motor - weight differences).

One the side note, some people ask me if I work for AST because of my undying positive feedback for them. Well, that's a total misconception. At one point after receiving the ASTs, installing them, realizing that there's a bit of problems with the install (reservoir lines too short, one side of strut hole is too small had to redrill), and spending money to corner balance my car I realized that the external reservoirs started leaking!!! This became a pain because I only have my 240 as a daily driver, I have to ship the damn coilovers (shipping is pricey as hell), and I need to find a spare set to ride on and get my car realigned!

To get to the point (sorry bout the rant), I got fed up that I filed a claim with my credit card for a full refund due PITA events that I came across. Luckily, Bruce at PSI changed my mind to keep them. He took ownership of the AST's warranty, and now I have them back and very happy with them (Brian and Terry have him to thank for that).

But anyway, AST has their share of quirks and it can be a pain in the ass to get them fixed. Overall they do make a really good damper. Just be sure to them through Bruce at PSI, otherwise you might be in for a headache if you order directly through Vorshlag because they seem to overlook the finer details. Just my opinion. And yes, they do make good shocks.

[Umai Kakudo]

According to one bio (http://www.gymkhanausa.com/about_us.html) Taka won -
- 2002, 2003 SCCA Pro Solo National Champion
- 2002, SCCA Solo II National Champion

and has the dubious distinction of singlehandedly getting the AE86 bumped out of FSP to DSP where it became uncompetitive. http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/204487.aspx

If you have too much roll compliance you may also consider increasing roll bar rates instead of spring rates. Japanese drivers tend to favor the high spring rate/stock swaybars/high compression damping to take advantage of their smooth tracks and give the most droop travel out on mountain roads.

On some rougher American tracks (Like Willow Springs) a softer spring rate and high speed damping is needed to keep the car from unsettling over bumps and swaybars can be employed to control body roll while keeping the compliance of a softer spring/damper setup.

Try and consider all the options and figure out the best solution for where you run.

[mmdb]

Good advice. I played with the roll bar settings at the event, and it looks like I might go ahead and try it. I'm curious to know how hard the ride might be, or how bumpy. I think a large part of JDM coilovers with the same spring rates is that I find the low speed dampening is extremely overdampened, but maybe with ASTs I might fair better. Any thoughts?

[SoSideways]

Good advice. I played with the roll bar settings at the event, and it looks like I might go ahead and try it. I'm curious to know how hard the ride might be, or how bumpy. I think a large part of JDM coilovers with the same spring rates is that I find the low speed dampening is extremely overdampened, but maybe with ASTs I might fair better. Any thoughts?

Actually, most JDM coilovers have like no low speed damping, but like 1 million times the damping it needs for high speed, which is where the shocks will be when you start hitting bumps on the road at speed.

Low speed damping is for situation like when you enter a sweeper and the car starts to load one side. Having good damping there will help to minimize body roll at corner entry.