Swaybar Shootout

[spool_sample]

Taken from the intro thread. Post up what you got and how it works. My S14- Godspeed Front Sway (30.3mm) Godspeed Rear Sway (28mm) <--I might be wrong on the size of that one. I ran the first event with the stock rear and big front and it was good (13th Raw out of 80) Ran the second event with both big bars and did even better (7th RAW out of 130) However both events were on the craptastic AGX's or a bastardized AGX Front/Koni Yellow Rear combo. Next event I will have Koni/GC on both ends of the car and -4° Camber in the front. I am still getting a feel for the car, I have total of 9 autox runs in it to date. I cant tell if I am lifting a rear tire or not. Should I give NO rear bar a shot? It might come down to personal preference. I really don't like having a rear bar. I lift rears once in a while, resulting in wheelspin city when trying to come out of a tight corner. Depending on what other things the rear bar is messing with, it makes sweepers a hassle, too, since I have to fight with the car to keep it settled... the slightest kink, and the rear comes out. I also have a good amount of power, so I think the lack of a rear sway would help me with traction more than someone with a stock KA. I've tried disconnecting the rear mid-event and it made a definite increase in traction, but the car wouldn't rotate because I don't have nearly enough camber or spring (yet) to compensate. The big front theory I took from the BMW guys, which was further reinforced by Dennis Grant (who explains it in plain English). I ripped this directly from his "Autocross to Win" page: McStruts have really crappy camber compensation in roll; the suspension does not gain negative camber when compressed like a double A arm does. This means that as the car rolls, it is trying to pry the outside front increasingly positive in camber, to the detriment of front grip... The usual hot ticket for setting up a front McStrut is to admit that one happy tire usually makes more grip than a pair of pissed off tires, so you slap a lot of front bar on the car, get 100% front lateral weight transfer (lifting the inside front off the ground in the process) and then set the static camber such that the outside front tire is in its Happy Place at full roll - look at any fast M3 or CamaroStang. Take that for what it's worth.

[AceInHole]

I'd highly recommend removing the rear swaybar. My setup was tuned for slight understeer to keep the rear end in check under throttle, but with the new alignment and a small bump in rear pressure, my car was tail happy the last time I drove it. I'm running: - FRONT: Whiteline (27mm solid IIRC) - REAR: None Comments: Plants the rear a bit better, and gets more out of the HLSD. Combined with 600lb springs up front, and 450lb springs in back, it's pretty neutral. Bumping rear tire pressure 4psi above fronts (28psi front, 32psi rear) resulted in lots of oversteer.

[ramm]

Now, Do you the endlinks really make a difference?

[AceInHole]

$40 from McMaster = run heims: http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/PirateS14/suspensions/DSC_6271.jpg

[McCoy]

I have Progress front and rear swaybars. When I was NA and doing track days, both bars were setup to the middle setting for stiffness, this seemed to work fine on/off track. After a turboed the car, I had to soften the rear bar and I still had issues of oversteer on corner exit. I have no LSD in the car yet either and am on 225 width tires, neither of these helped the situation. I might remove the rear swaybar next year depending on the results of running larger tires, the HLSD, and the Koni suspension.

[ecugrad]

Right now I am running 335F and 275R. Its a long story but I plan on bumping the front 100lbs as soon as I can find some 6" springs. My 240 is N/A with a S13 cam installed by the previous owner. So Im not rolling with the big HP like some of you guys. We have a "fun" day autox in December. I will experiment with it and report back. Ace- Got some part numbers for those endlinks?

[turtl631]

Progress bars come with pillowball endlinks and they're adjustable. They're also pretty cheap, so I see no reason to buy anything else. I'll be grabbing a front Progress bar next summer.

[AceInHole]

Ace- Got some part numbers for those endlinks? 4444T101 2 Each High-strength Ball Joint Rod End, 3/8"-24 Rh Male Shank, 3570 Pound Load Capacity 4444T211 2 Each High-strength Ball Joint Rod End, 3/8"-24 Rh Female Shank, 5100 Pound Load Capacity 92316A632 1 Pack Grade 8 Alloy Steel Hex Flange Cap Screw, 3/8"-16 Thread, 2" Length 90630A121 1 Pack Grade 8 Plain Steel Hex Nylon-insert Locknut, 3/8"-16 Screw Size, 9/16" Width, 29/64" Height I made my own spacers using 3/8" ID pipe, but I'm betting sleeve bearings would work: 2938T6 8 Each SAE 863 Bronze Flanged-Sleeve Bearing for 3/8" Shaft Dia, 1/2" OD X1/4" L X11/16" Flange OD I also forgot to order lock nuts. I was planning on running brass self sealing ones, though (keep the threads clean). 90215A431 2 Each Self-Sealing Locknut 3/8"-24 Screw Size, 5/8" Width, 7/32" Height Pretty much any 3/8-24 thread nut will do. Skinnier ones (7/32") will give you a bit more range of travel. Also, pretty much any of the 3/8" heims will work in a male/ female combo. I'd probably use non-grease fitting heims next time around, and run some seals-it boots for the hell of it. The downfall of this setup is it's not easy to adjust (to undo preload). If anyone knows where to get small adjustment collars (LH thread outside, RH thread inside), let me know :)

[McCoy]

Progress bars come with pillowball endlinks and they're adjustable. They're also pretty cheap, so I see no reason to buy anything else. I'll be grabbing a front Progress bar next summer. Yep, can't beat them for the price... that's for sure. I ran these on my Sentra for close to 5 years. When I pulled them off, the bearings still had movement and were solid, no slop. Of course I live in an area where they don't put salt on the roads and cars typically never rust here.

[spool_sample]

Progress bars come with pillowball endlinks and they're adjustable. They're also pretty cheap, so I see no reason to buy anything else. I'll be grabbing a front Progress bar next summer. Yep, can't beat them for the price... that's for sure. I ran these on my Sentra for close to 5 years. When I pulled them off, the bearings still had movement and were solid, no slop. Of course I live in an area where they don't put salt on the roads and cars typically never rust here. I might talk to a buddy of mine to see if he can make some custom sway bars. He's done a bunch for some pretty serious BSP Subaru people, and he says he can do any size as long as it'll fit under the car. :P I'm thinking about having him make me a 32mm solid front bar that's 2- or 3-way adjustable. If I go through with this, I'll let you guys know and he can probably make whatever kind of bars you guys would want.

[AceInHole]

If I had a bar made, it would look like this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/gunluvS14/Roebling%20Rd%20Nov%202004/EPSN0012.jpg

[veilside180sx]

If I had a bar made, it would look like this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/gunluvS14/Roebling%20Rd%20Nov%202004/EPSN0012.jpg That's the only way to fly=)

[spool_sample]

oooo Speedway bar. :D

[ramm]

is that your brake duct hose? if so where did you get it from? i need enough to put on my car and a friends E36. Pricing?

[a_ahmed]

I bet we could have someone make them if there was enough interest hehe :) It would also be cool if you did an article on how you put together your custom endlinks for the less knowledged like me.

[SOneThreeCoupe]

is that your brake duct hose? if so where did you get it from? i need enough to put on my car and a friends E36. Pricing? You can get it from Pegasus, RPW, etc. I think I've seen it on eBay, used, from NASCARs... though there is none on there now. Links: Lower temp: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3620 Higher temp: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3621 RPW: http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/duct.htm /offtopic As far as sway bars go, I'm running Whitelines front (27) and rear (22) with adjustable endlinks. I don't autocross, but I do tight tracks and I have to say that the rear Whiteline, even on soft, makes the car a handful to drive fast when combined with my 1.5-way. By the way, put together your own endlinks using MCP rod ends or similar. The kits that SPL sells are ungodly expensive and use incredibly crappy rod ends.

[Invisible_Saddle]

I'm running tanabes (30.4) front (22) rear. I like the feel with my setup. However I would like to do the rosejoint endlinks on it. I can only imagine the increase in response and feedback.

[Rennmeister]

I wonder how much rate is lost in lower arm flexure with the solid links.

I would want to run the higher rate spring rather than sway bar personally. Less weight, more linearity, better droop travel, and more of an independent action on the suspension.

BMW's run high front spring rates (700 - 1000# is common), the cars running stockish suspension are the only ones running the big front sways.

The sway should act as a supplementary member, not the primary roll resistance.

[AceInHole]

I wonder how much rate is lost in lower arm flexure with the solid links.[quote]
It would depend on where it's mounted, although most cars would have a custom or boxed LCA by the time they saw a bar like that.

[quote]I would want to run the higher rate spring rather than sway bar personally. Less weight, more linearity, better droop travel, and more of an independent action on the suspension.


BMW's run high front spring rates (700 - 1000# is common), the cars running stockish suspension are the only ones running the big front sways.[quote]
My friend's E36 is running a decent front bar along with 650 - 700# springs up front. I pretty much mimicked his setup with my car's initial rates since the design is similar (although my rear springs are a bit over half his due to the difference in motion ratio). I think the track width I'm running, along with having slightly more weight up front, are what make me need a larger front bar.

[quote]The sway should act as a supplementary member, not the primary roll resistance.
Well, a big bar will still be supplementary when paired with heavy springs :)

[Wiisass]

If you guys would want to know the actual rates of these bars, I could start testing them again. I have been testing Mk3 and Mk4 supra bars the past couple days. I haven't had a chance to test any S14 bars, but I have tested a bunch of S13 bars, stock, HICAS rear, Tanabe, Progress and ST.

So if anyone is interested, I would be willing to test whatever people send me. I figure now is a good time because the season won't be starting for a little while. I wouldn't need the bar for long. Depending on where you are it would be out of your hands for probably 2 weeks max. Let me know if anyone is interested.

Tim

[spool_sample]

If you guys would want to know the actual rates of these bars, I could start testing them again. I have been testing Mk3 and Mk4 supra bars the past couple days. I haven't had a chance to test any S14 bars, but I have tested a bunch of S13 bars, stock, HICAS rear, Tanabe, Progress and ST.

So if anyone is interested, I would be willing to test whatever people send me. I figure now is a good time because the season won't be starting for a little while. I wouldn't need the bar for long. Depending on where you are it would be out of your hands for probably 2 weeks max. Let me know if anyone is interested.

Tim

I have a Largus 32mm front bar for an S14 if you're interested.

[ckcadavona]

Do you have the rates posted? If not, will you post them?

[Wiisass]

If I'm going to do it, I want to get a bunch of bars lined up before I start testing them. Just to make the data easier to go through. I mean knowing the rate of just the largus front bar would be good, but it would be nice to compare to a stock S14 front bar and also other bars on the market. So if we can get a people together who have bars they would be willing to send, then I will do it. Maybe I will start another thread on it.

I have not posted the rates yet. I haven't decided what number to share and what to keep to myself. I have put a lot of time into my models, and I don't like to give too much of that away, but I will put together something soon and post it up here.

[ckcadavona]

I have put a lot of time into my models, and I don't like to give too much of that away, but I will put together something soon and post it up here.

I respect that, thanks