S-chassis alignments!!!

[veilside180sx]

I'd kill for even 5 degrees of caster on the Sentra. The last time i had it aligned...I could only pull off 1.5 degrees of caster...lol

[AceInHole]

1.5?? I wonder if that's due to the FWD layout. More caster on it might load or unload the suspension while trying to plant power.

[veilside180sx]

Yeah it is due to the FWD layout. Usually you can put to use about 4-5 degrees of caster, but anymore than that and the chassis starts to react to input weird. I was hoping for at least 2-2.5 degrees stock though...but when we threw it on the Hunter rack...1.5 was it...

[spool_sample]

I forgot what was in this thread before, but I was wondering if anyone had any input on my alignment plans:

Front:
-3.0 camber
0 toe
7 caster

Rear:
-2.0 camber
1/16" toe-in

Notes:
- S14
- Spring rates will be around 550lbs F, 450lbs R (basically 10k/8k), supplemented by a Largus 32mm front sway bar and no rear bar
- Tires are RE-01Rs, 245/40/17 all around on 17x9 +17 wheels

There were two things I was wondering about. One, should I maybe run more front camber? IIRC, some of the more hardcore auto-x guys like Ace and JRho have been running as much as -4.0 or more, and I'm thinking that -3.0 might not be quite enough, especially without a rear bar to help the car rotate. I'm planning on using the car mostly for auto-x and definitely a few track days, and I don't drive it on the street much, except to events, which could be 2 or more hours of highway driving. I don't think tire wear should be an issue as long as the toe remains pretty much zeroed. Which brings me to my next question: rear toe.

I have no idea how much toe I should run in the back. 1/16" seems like a good place to start, but don't S-chassis rear suspensions toe-in on compression? I would think that possibly going with zero would both help the car rotate off-throttle and help with tire wear in the rear by only toeing-in on acceleration. Am I on the right track?

If anyone has any suggestions, please post them, I'm interested in what more experienced people would recommend.

[turtl631]

I've run an alignment pretty close to that but with 0.2* degree less camber in both front and rear and it resulted in pretty even tire temps. This was for track days, btw. I think more front camber helps in autox because at higher steering angles the mac strut setup gets a little goofy. I was just reading the GRM article about Jason Rhoades' STS car and he mentioned that the rear suspension cambers in quite a bit under compression and hence didn't need much static camber to work well. When I posted about alignment on FA he recommended 0 front toe and very slight rear toe-in, as you mentioned.

All that said, it would be good to hear from people who have looked at what the front and rear suspensions do under compression in terms of camber and toe. I was planning to do this when I revamp my suspension.

[2Fass240us]

I purchased a Firestone lifetime alignment for the S13, figuring they could get close if prodded and I'm likely to make TONS of suspension changes/upgrades over the tears.

When I had it aligned, they weren't able to get the rear left toe in spec, and it was set to 1.45°. Rear right toe was also out, set to 0.89°. Thoughts? Maybe this is why my ass never became happy!

[McCoy]

Since my post was wiped as of the change to Vbulletin, here is what I ran all last year. For the most part the alignment felt great when I was NA and ran on the 225/45/17 RE-01R's.

Front:
Camber -2.5
Toe 0
Caster 7

Rear:
Camber -2.0
Toe 1/16 toe-in

For next year, I'll be making a few changes. Most of the changes will be due to making an extra 100+ whp and that I'm running alot more tire. Also the car hunted on the road way WAY to much with zero toe up front.

Front:
Camber -1.5 to 2 (limited to what I can get with the new housings)
Toe 1/16th toe-in
Caster 8.5-9 (to compensate for the lack of camber)

Rear:
Camber -1.5
Toe 1/8 toe-in (to assist in keep the back end plated on corner exit)

[turtl631]

The front housings have that much of an effect on camber? -2* isn't very much for DOT R comps on a strut suspension. I'm already running more than that with street tires and my tire temps are even to the degree I'd like. Have you tried maxing out your camber plates and only got -2*?

[McCoy]

Richards first batch of strut housings don't allow for that much camber, which is great if your wanting to maximize the inner tire/strut clearance. All the newer housings he's building offset the upper hole to allow for more camber, but come at a cost of wheel/strut clearance, so I'm ok with the loss of camber.

The more tire you run, the less camber you need *in theory*. With 2.5 degrees of camber up front and the 225 width RE01R's I was seeing optimal temps and good wear across the tires. For a 255-275 width tire 2 degrees should be enough.

I'll back my talk with facts once I get a few track days in with the new setup. I do use a longacre tire pyrometer to measure tire temps after every session until I have tire pressures right and to help with any last bit of alignment tweeks that need to be made. This was a must when I ran hoosiers on the sentra, those tires were so sensitive to alignment and tire pressures.

[turtl631]

Hm, I'd never heard that. What's the basis for wider tires requiring less camber?

I also would expect R comps to need more camber than street tires because they generate more grip, and thus more body roll, moving you away from the nice part of the mac strut camber curve.

As always though, experience trumps e-guesses, and I'll be really interested to see how it all works out for you :D

[McCoy]

I'll get back to the wider tires/less camber theory when I have more time to think it through... now that you make me think of it, I'm drawing a blank :).

As for the additional grip of the R-compound tires and body roll, that's what stiffer springs and rollbars are for ;).

[turtl631]

I'll get back to the wider tires/less camber theory when I have more time to think it through... now that you make me think of it, I'm drawing a blank :).

As for the additional grip of the R-compound tires and body roll, that's what stiffer springs and rollbars are for ;).


Indeed, I just meant if everything else is kept constant. Jason Rhoades was a big proponent of front camber on his STS car, I think it ran -4.5* on street tires. Not sure what alignment he had once he went to the big Hoosiers though.

[spool_sample]

Indeed, I just meant if everything else is kept constant. Jason Rhoades was a big proponent of front camber on his STS car, I think it ran -4.5* on street tires. Not sure what alignment he had once he went to the big Hoosiers though.

I was just looking at his SM build thread the other day on FA. I think his alignment was something like:

Front:
-4.0 camber
1/16th toe out
Some amount of caster

Rear:
-2.25 camber
3/4" toe-in total (!)

[McCoy]

A good autocross alignment is not the same as a good track alignment. I've been there and done that with my NX2000 and finally stopped autocrossing mainly due to the fact I wanted to focus more on track days and setting the car up properly it.

There is a thing as to much camber, this is why it's important to use a tire pyrometer to make sure the alignment is working for you and not against you... or the life of your tire :)

[racepar1]

Since my post was wiped as of the change to Vbulletin, here is what I ran all last year. For the most part the alignment felt great when I was NA and ran on the 225/45/17 RE-01R's.

Front:
Camber -2.5
Toe 0
Caster 7

Rear:
Camber -2.0
Toe 1/16 toe-in

For next year, I'll be making a few changes. Most of the changes will be due to making an extra 100+ whp and that I'm running alot more tire. Also the car hunted on the road way WAY to much with zero toe up front.

Front:
Camber -1.5 to 2 (limited to what I can get with the new housings)
Toe 1/16th toe-in
Caster 8.5-9 (to compensate for the lack of camber)

Rear:
Camber -1.5
Toe 1/8 toe-in (to assist in keep the back end plated on corner exit)

In the front I would run toe-out. Toe out is supposed to help the car turn in and change directions better. It is definitely a good idea to give it a ****load more caster to compensate for the loss of camber. The specs I am currently running on my s-13 are:

FRONT:
-2.8 camber
+7 caster
0 toe
REAR:
-2.0 camber
1/16" total toe in
3/8" shorter trac arms

I haven't noticed any serious "hunting" problems with my toe and the shorter trac arms really seemed to help the car bite off the corners. I think for my next alignment I will run:

FRONT:
-3.0 camber
+7.5 caster
1/16" total toe out
REAR:
-2.0 camber
1/16" total toe in
Shorten the trac arms another 1/4" or so

[racepar1]

A good autocross alignment is not the same as a good track alignment. I've been there and done that with my NX2000 and finally stopped autocrossing mainly due to the fact I wanted to focus more on track days and setting the car up properly it.

There is a thing as to much camber, this is why it's important to use a tire pyrometer to make sure the alignment is working for you and not against you... or the life of your tire :)


Have you read the article in I forget which magazine about the super taiku endless evo? Those crazy guys are running -6 to -7.5 camber in the front! :eek: I find it hard to believe that those specs work.

[McCoy]

Have you read the article in I forget which magazine about the super taiku endless evo? Those crazy guys are running -6 to -7.5 camber in the front! :eek: I find it hard to believe that those specs work.
Yes, and they probably don't care about how long the tires last or about driving the car on the street either ;)

[McCoy]

In the front I would run toe-out. Toe out is supposed to help the car turn in and change directions better. It is definitely a good idea to give it a ****load more caster to compensate for the loss of camber. The specs I am currently running on my s-13 are:

car turn in is great for autoX, but not as much so on a track. I've been doing this for about 5 years now and played alot with my alignments over the year. The one thing that I did know with toe-out on the alignement was how fast the inner tires disappeared.

[racepar1]

car turn in is great for autoX, but not as much so on a track. I've been doing this for about 5 years now and played alot with my alignments over the year. The one thing that I did know with toe-out on the alignement was how fast the inner tires disappeared.

You have a point there. On a track the changes in direction will be less sudden and further apart so that won't make much of a difference. Turn in would be beneficial but not enough to justify eating tires. I am too used to zilvia! I can't believe that the small amount of profanity in my post was edited! LOL! This will take some getting used to. I definitely like that attitude though, no need for swearing.

[Wiisass]

Keep in mind that toe settings will also bias ackerman. So even if turn in isn't a concern, different toe settings may have different results depending on tire selection and track layout.

[racepar1]

Keep in mind that toe settings will also bias ackerman. So even if turn in isn't a concern, different toe settings may have different results depending on tire selection and track layout.

SOOOOOOO true! A lot of people don't understand that different tracks take different set-ups. On our atlantic car the buttonwillow set-up was nothing like the big willow set-up. It also depends on the driver though. Different drivers like different things from their cars. Really all of us need to try different things and see what we like. Darrin at west end alignment reccomended toe-out to me for a track car so I think i'll try it. Setting toe is easy enough that I can re-set it at the track if I dont like it anyways.

[McCoy]

toe-out is fine, and I'll probably go back to it once I see how this toe-in feels on track. I just want to try a hair of toe-in this time and see how it works... the car seems to rotate easily enough when I roll into the throttle as it is and our track consists mostly of higher speed 3rd gear turns. if I don't like it I'll go toe-out for sure on the next alignment session.

[djsilver]

Camber vs. width of tires;

Picture this extreme example; Take a tire that's 6" wide and tilt it 4 degrees inboard. Now take a tire that's twice as wide (12") and tilt it 4 degrees inboard. The outer edge of the wider tire will be twice as high off the ground.

[sr20goofus]

This is a good thread and covers alot of varying things that have different effects depending on overall setup. All good information.

My question is.....do any of the track (not auto-x) drivers here pick one alignment and stick with it to maximize the ability to learn the cars setup? Instead of changing things after every event and analyzing everything, pick a setup and learn the car instead of always hunting for that ideal race alignment?

I have always been a fan of minimal changes to maximize the learning curve and that way you can see what you are changing with your driving style and not always your car. Seems most people want to make changes instead of learning.

From an instructors stand point this seems like the best method to me, especially for people who want to learn to drive fast and not always worry about setups.

I didnt change a things about my car for 2 years, and i consistently cut my lap times down because i was only concentrating one driving and nothing else.

[McCoy]

I tried to quote your post, Casey... but it's not letting me do that right now for some reason.

With the sentra, I stuck with the same alignment for over 2 years with the only changes made to toe in an effort to get the hoosiers to last longer than 2 days up front.

For the 240, I've had to make a few changes due to how the car handled in the corners last year, I think I resolved most of that by going with the HLSD (from an open diff) and getting some of the camber out of the back. The car feels right now and the only changes that I'm going to make is to get more camber up front since I don't have enough... once this is done I probably won't touch this alignment unless the tire temps tell me otherwise.

[ckcadavona]

I was doing my alignment today and I realized that I forgot to check it after I took the rear sway bar off. I'm not sure if it was from removing the sway bar or the cross country trip but my rear toe went from 1/4in total toe in to 3/8 total toe in! Tires still have about 3/32 tread left. Once I get my tein rear upper mounts and adjust my ride height I'd like to finalize my alignment and stick with it for aprox. a year.

[Def]

I could see making changes based on the track if you were looking for that last tenth or two AND had some data acq. to at least guide you in the direction of change.

Otherwise I don't see any situation where you're going to get much by constantly changing the car. That said, I do mod my car for different reasons than trying to chase those last few tenths at the track. I think everybody driving an S chassis could say their driving could ALWAYS improve by some amount, but I personally enjoy tinkering with my car and "play engineering" with it.

[sr20goofus]

from what i have learned over the years its best to concentrate on driving and learning than relying on mods and then claiming that the mod helped you loose 2sec per la when in the end it could be the fact that you changed your braking and turn-in points by a touch in several corners adding up to the 2sec difference.

learning and improving your own skill with what you have has always been more important to me than small adjustments to this or that, a good reason why i am so suspension retarded, because i havnt ever played with it much, i spent too much time with track footage and seat.

[2Fass240us]

from what i have learned over the years its best to concentrate on driving and learning than relying on mods and then claiming that the mod helped you loose 2sec per la when in the end it could be the fact that you changed your braking and turn-in points by a touch in several corners adding up to the 2sec difference.
I agree with this except when it comes to seats/harnesses/rollbar. This is something that probably DOES improve performance because it takes your mind of trying to constantly keep you in the seat. And oh yeah, it makes it safer too. :)

[McCoy]

I don't know, I was pretty sure the extra 100whp, a nice set of struts/stiff springs, an LSD, bigger and sticker tires, and a good alignment sure helps a car get around the track much easier than a stock setup. I know I'm being a little sarcastic here...

I mean I can drive a car stock, but it's not as fun as having the car setup to where it's fairly neutral on track, has good traction out of corners, and can stop without fear of going off at turn 5. Most the items I've added to my car are in the hopes of making the car that more enjoyable on track.

I still agree that driving is 90% of what needs to be learned, but it doesn't hurt to upgrade certain areas either if you can or want to.

[EG8steve]

Fully agree, with SR20goofus and most instructors agree too- keep the car the same, learn to drive better. But i also agree that having the car set with gear thats appropriate for its use will make it all better.

I beleive you take care of the basics on the car, then make changes VERY sparingly and after alot of seat time with each setup. Get tires that work at high temps, get pads that work at high temps, brake fluid obviously, a seat harness roll bar defeinitely keep your mind on driving only. But as far as making lots of spring rate, and alignment changes. I would avoid it AS LONG AS ITS PRETTY CLOSE. Meaning no blown stock shocks and zero camber- you know that wont work.

Sure pro teams have a setup for each track, but they have data aquisition, crazy budgets, and PRO DRIVERS. I know we all think we are good drivers, but go do a solo national and tell me the same thing (oops supposed to stay off solo for this one).. i know it opened my eyes way back at my first one.

I cant see how -7. degrees of camber will work, it'd surely HURT BRAKING BIG TIME!

But you do see crazy camber angles on ALMS porshes. Dont know the actual specs, but i also read one time a speed touring car BMW (turner i think) used -4.5 degrees up front, but interestingly their grand am car (at the same time, couple years ago) used more like -3.0 .. At that time i think grand am was using the hoosier GAC tire, and world challenge might have even been on T1-s, or maybe it was RA1s, so that might be the explaiination, softer sidewall needs more camber.

-steve

[EG8steve]

Also about wheel/tire width and camber- the above statement is true, but also think about the fact that a wider wheel and tire will not flex as much as a narrower wheel and tire. Camber needs to offset tire flex and body roll to keep the tread flat at the limit.

[McCoy]

The front housings have that much of an effect on camber? -2* isn't very much for DOT R comps on a strut suspension. I'm already running more than that with street tires and my tire temps are even to the degree I'd like. Have you tried maxing out your camber plates and only got -2*?
I finally got in a few hot track days to respond to this one. At least on my setup, the tire pyrometer is saying that my rears are fine at -1.5 of camber, but my fronts are lacking some. My front left is at -1.1 and right is at -1.5 and temps say I need a bit more. I'm going to mod the upper camber plates (PJ style) to squeeze an extra .8 to 1 degree of camber up front and go from there I guess.

[sr20goofus]

how does the housing limit your camber so much? it must be thin enough for you to fit those 275 wheels on there.

[McCoy]

how does the housing limit your camber so much? it must be thin enough for you to fit those 275 wheels on there.
It's the placement of the strut bolt holes... I get maximum tire/strut clearance at a cost of camber with the current setup.

I'm going to try and modify the camber plate to get to where I want... if not I'll notch the upper strut bolt hole to get the needed amount and deal with the loss of tire clearance.

[sr20goofus]

OR....i know it more work....you could drill each camber plate hole another 0.5-1" inward and seal up the old holes to try and maintain rigidity....it would give you a much wider range of options for camber settings.

[McCoy]

OR....i know it more work....you could drill each camber plate hole another 0.5-1" inward and seal up the old holes to try and maintain rigidity....it would give you a much wider range of options for camber settings.
That's one option that I hadn't thought of yet. I'll probably do what PJ did... basically use a hole saw (or whatever it takes) to take some material out of the camber plate to allow more negative camber in the front. There's a fair bit of material on the inside and removing a small amount shouldn't hurt the rigidity to much.

[Cory]

Fully agree, with SR20goofus and most instructors agree too- keep the car the same, learn to drive better. But i also agree that having the car set with gear thats appropriate for its use will make it all better.


I always feel something in the car that I don't like. May it be adding a little toe to the rear, or running different tires. I wish I could get my car to the point where I just drive it and leave it the way it is. But there is always some "bug" that I find when I'm driving, or something I would like to try differently. In a way, you are always trying to improve the "vehicular package" which is car+driver by making changes to either. If you change something on the car and drive slower, then its obvious that the change was bad and visa versa. If the car doesn't feel right, you should change it. I hate working around flaws, and that is what driving a car that doesn't feel right is to me. I really think that you should have some form of data acquisition other than the butt dyno though before you just go changing ****.

All personal preference of course.

[Def]

That's one option that I hadn't thought of yet. I'll probably do what PJ did... basically use a hole saw (or whatever it takes) to take some material out of the camber plate to allow more negative camber in the front. There's a fair bit of material on the inside and removing a small amount shouldn't hurt the rigidity to much.

You could do that, but I'd look into slotting the upper spindle mounting hole. My crappy K-Sports had this, and they never slipped.

1/16" of slotting will get you about 1.4-1.5 deg more camber, so not much material needs to be taken off.

[McCoy]

You could do that, but I'd look into slotting the upper spindle mounting hole. My crappy K-Sports had this, and they never slipped.
The problem is that if I do that, then I'd need to use bigger spacers up front due to how close I'm running the tires to the struts as it is currently.

I still might need to do this, but wanted to save it for the last option.

[racepar1]

This is a good thread and covers alot of varying things that have different effects depending on overall setup. All good information.

My question is.....do any of the track (not auto-x) drivers here pick one alignment and stick with it to maximize the ability to learn the cars setup? Instead of changing things after every event and analyzing everything, pick a setup and learn the car instead of always hunting for that ideal race alignment?

I have always been a fan of minimal changes to maximize the learning curve and that way you can see what you are changing with your driving style and not always your car. Seems most people want to make changes instead of learning.

From an instructors stand point this seems like the best method to me, especially for people who want to learn to drive fast and not always worry about setups.

I didnt change a things about my car for 2 years, and i consistently cut my lap times down because i was only concentrating one driving and nothing else.

I leave my set up alone for two to four events at a time, but the car is constantly getting additional mods as I am not happy with where it is at yet. I no longer adjust the car at the track though. At the track I concentrate on my driving alone unless something is seriously wrong. In the garage I concentrate on making the car better for the next event. Maybe if I had an onboard camera that I could record my sessions with I would spend more time analyzing the driving. I honestly enjoy tinkering with the car more than I do analyzing the driving though.

[a_ahmed]

quick alignment question

My mechanic/friend of mine has a new bad ass alignment machine

I can pretty much ask him to do whatever...

http://www.ziptied.com/Coppermine/albums/userpics/10252/02%7E7.jpg

Same machine, same interface this is how it looks.

I was curious on one thing.

Everything on there is displayed as 0.00 when we speak in this thread we mention 1/16 toe in/out, etc... what does this translate to then in the 0.00 format? If I tell him I want settings such and such.. he asked me 1/16 = 0.0625? or something... are we talking inches, mm, confusing a bit... would like to discuss that briefly enlighten me so we can align the car right after everything is back together (after six bloody months of car coma)

[Epstein]

1/16" = 0.14*
1/8" = 0.29*
3/16" = 0.43*
1/4" = 0.57*

[a_ahmed]

so how do you calculate that? Pardon my ignorance :o

[Epstein]

When toe is specified in length, they're talking about the difference in distance from the centerline of the car to the front and back surfaces of the tire. So when you have 1/8" toe-in, the front of the tire is 1/8" closer to the centerline than the rear of that tire. To convert to angle, take that toe in inches, divide it by 25" (diameter of tire), and take the arcsine of that.

[a_ahmed]

is there a a calculator i can use for that?... That means it would change depending on tire size right...

Like what racepar1 suggested:

FRONT:
-3.0 camber
+7.5 caster
1/16" total toe out
REAR:
-2.0 camber
1/16" total toe in
Shorten the trac arms another 1/4" or so

I would run 255/40/17 on 17x9+17 front and rear...

[turtl631]

255/40/17 is usually 25"

you're on your own for converting to metres

[Epstein]

you're on your own for converting to metres

BWAHAHAHA!

Yeah, I quoted on a 25" tire because that's the right size for a 240sx. 255/40/17 is exactly 25" on most manufacturers. Obviously 1/8" toe is going to wind up at different angles on an old Civic versus an F-150, which is why you see degrees/minutes used as an alternative.

I've run something close to racepar's recommendations and that should work nice.

[a_ahmed]

I am so fricking confused. 255milimeters converted to inches is 10.039~inches...

I need some visual explanations...

im frickin confused

inches, minutes, milimeters, meters, degrees aaaah

[Cory]

Did you ever take Trigonometry in high school? Picture a right triangle. You know sides A and B, and you know one angle is 90*. And yes, there are calculators for right triangles.

http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-trigright.asp

[Your Mom]

thats alot of camber

[a_ahmed]

okay now things are coming into focus. It's been a while since i did trig... i dont use it on a daily basis anymore hahahah...

So... lets go with this diagram... a is height of tire? b is width of tire? c is going to be used for the angle of camber? Lets start with this if im on the right track...? If I am?

Epstein you stated the following

1/16" = 0.14*
1/8" = 0.29*
3/16" = 0.43*
1/4" = 0.57

so... 1/4" this is then inches... inches being calculated where? That it leads to 0.57? 0.57 degrees right... This being true as you said if the tire is 25" tall? What's the relation then to all the values? 1/4" to the 0.57 degree? to the 25" tire?

Edit: Or sorry I was visualizing side profile with triangle for camber? I was trying to figure out toe calculation... but none the less id like to know both more precisley... toe and stating 1/16", 1/8" confused me at first..

I'm a total newb at this and me want to unnoob myself :D

I dont care how stupid im sounding i wana understand the math and the process :)

Also when you say 0.14 degree, is that per tire or a combination total?

I hope I have valid questions lol...

[Cory]

I don't know the trigonometric functions off of the top of my head either. Google is my best friend. I'll use it for every job I have probably.

IDK about anybody else on here, but my car loves camber. My friends 2.5rs, my impreza L, and my 240sx all have over three degrees up front, and all responded well to it. Before, I would hit maybe .93g on most turns with about 2.5* up front. Now, I pull at least 1G, and I have seen as much as 1.08G on flat turns. On-camber turns are obviously more. Although, I am running terrible springs. I have a feeling my car will be less partial to camber with my future setup given the stiffer spring rates.

It is a quarter of an inch from the outermost part of the tire in or out. Measuring like that is not very accurate, and does not carry over to all applications. Degrees is a universal way to measure toe. Simple calculations can tell you this. Basically, determine how many degrees of toe you want, and then plug that angle into the trig calculator with the radius of the tire/wheel. That will tell you how many inches to move the tire in or out.

[racepar1]

thats alot of camber

Why is that a lot of camber? 3* or MORE is super common for any macpherson strut front suspension car. 2* rear is a bit much by only about .5*. I have personally run up to 2.5* rear camber with no noticeable negative side effects. Only recently have I decided that 2* is too much and that is only due to the fact that shortened trac arms increase camber gain. With stock length trac arms 2* is just about perfect.

[Caithness]

My recent alignment sheet:
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll52/Thane_Caithness/car%20stuff/alignment/1008align.jpg

Suspension/steering setup:
KYB GR-2 shocks, stock springs
Energy Suspension bushings in all the arms and uprights modded for grease fittings
SPL solid aluminum rear subframe bushings
SPL tension rods
Energy Suspension steering rack mounting bushings
ebay solid aluminum steering column bushing
Camber bolts up front
15x7 mystery wheels with 195/55/15 Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs
1/8" spacers
ARP extended wheel studs, Gorilla open-face lug nuts

I was pleased by the amount of camber they got out of the bolts up front. I was tempted to push caster to 8.5-9* but I needed to do more research and I ran out of time. Rear camber adjustment maxed negative on one side, rear toe adjustment maxed before they got to 1/16" in on both sides. The alignment was done at Cars and Concepts in Tampa, which I highly recommend to anybody in the area.

As for keeping setups consistent, this setup is staying consistent only until I can afford a veilside/8610 front, yellow rear, 6/5 Ground Control setup, camber plates, SPL rear toe arms, aluminum rack bushings and a HICAS rack. At that point the setup is pretty much done and ready to be left alone.

[Longfellow]

^Where did you get your car aligned at?

I'll be getting the car set up this saterday with the following;
Front:
-2.5* camber, 7.5* caster, 0ish* toe
Rear:
-1.75* camber, 0ish* toe

235-40-17 / 245-40-17 daily tires (FK452)
255-40-17 x4 playtime tires (RT615)

[eye-5]

So I pretty much stole you guys alignments. Car is mainly for autocrosss HPDEs and Time Attacks.

1995 S14
Front
Camber -2.5
Caster 6.5 (requested 7)
Toe 1/16 Toe in

Rear
Camber -1.5
1/16 Toe in on the passenger side. Driver's side was maxed at .52" toe in. The Toe rod is appearantly bent. Looks like an aftermarket part is in my near future.

At any rate I was amazed at the amout of stock adjustment in the 240. Camber in the rear is highly adjustable as well as toe. I have buddy club RSD's so the fronts have camber plates with a ton of adjustemnt left, in fact they are outboard of 0 (dead center) right now. I think I could get more than -4 degrees of camber in the fronts if I wanted.

[JRas]

S14:
FRONT:
-3.0 camber
7-7.5 caster
1/16" total toe out
REAR:
-2.0 camber
1/16" total toe in

I have adjustable rear upper arms, and toe arms. I'm wondering if I could run the same setup on stock arms?

I was running 275/40/17 RT-615's all around. This upcoming track day I will be running 255/40/17 Nitto NT-05's.

Opinions?

edit: I have Teins Basics ( came with the car ) working on replacing soon :)

[BeerBringer]

S13, Toyo's 888's:

Front camber 2.75
Front toe: A tad toe in
Caster 7.5
Rear camber 2.75
Rear toe: 0

I run alot of camber in the rear compared to most guys. But it seams to work fine for me :cool:

[a_ahmed]

Currently:

Front:
Camber: -3.0
Toe: 0
Caster: 7.5

Rear:
Camber: -2.0
Toe: 0.24 both sides
Traction arms: 3/8" shortened

I wanted to try toe out on front, but I will try 8.5 caster first. Since I broke the RUCAs last track day, I will have to wait until next track day to get a better evaluation. Only thing I felt was the car needed better turn in.

[98koukile]

What would you guys say is a good alignment for a DD S14 with Falken 452s 225/45/17 F 255/40/17 R?
I was thinking
Front:
Camber: -2*
Toe: 0
Caster: 7?

Rear:
Camber: -1.5*
Toe: 1/16 in

Right now the ass end gets a little weird with the open diff but I don't think an alignment will fix that. Also the front end definitely hunts with the stickier tires

[SoSideways]

If it's only for daily, why have toe-in in the rear?

I'd set toe to zero front and rear, and have to rear at more like -1* of camber, instead of -1.5.

Front at -2* should be fine, as is 7* of caster.

[Def]

Toe-in gives stability.

[SoSideways]

Toe-in gives stability.

Toe-in in the rear promotes a little understeer if I remember correctly.

On a daily driven car, unless it's going to get driven hard, I don't see why you would need toe-in to go to the grocery store and stuff?

Plus it would maximize tire life, no?

[98koukile]

Understeer would be great lol. I have a staggered setup and it still turns in way too hot sometimes. When I say daily I mean it gets driven everyday, I still drive it hard and this setup needs to at least be able to handle an auto-x or 2 this summer. I can make adjustments as I see fit after driving it I guess. Hopefully by mid summer I'll have an hlsd

[a_ahmed]

I just thought I'd post this for viewing interest, this is whiteline's (no longer on their website) s15 alignment spec recommendations:

http://download.s15oc.com/whiteline_alignment.jpg

[98koukile]

Why would caster vary from side to side? I don't know as much about it as camber and toe

[a_ahmed]

If I'm not mistaken and this may explain one of the issues I'm having... the left side or driver side has to always have a slight bit more caster... otherwise the car will pull in that direction. I just read about that today actually...

I set my car dead on to 0.0x on all specs... with me sitting in it.. and yes the car pulls slightly and the wheel is not straight lol...

On my car the rack is all centered and the tie rods were measured equally both sides... so doesn't make sense. So.. that being said, right now I have both sides at 8.5 caster... and it pulls...

I haven't had the car corner balanced, so I was thinking.. maybe it has to do with weight/height. Meaning regardless of how accurate the laser alignment came, even at 0.0x accuracy... the weight/height would affect things... and having read and seen this today... that probably would explain my issue and the whiteline specs...

I wonder what the stock settings are actually from Nissan? I'm sure the FSM has it somewhere.

[McCoy]

Ehh, I have the same caster on both sides and my car doesn't pull one direction more than the other.

The wheel not being straight is usually related to the guy doing the alignment...

[SoSideways]

Well if you think about it, the driver's side of the car will always be a little more heavy, and thus if you don't corner balance it and set the suspension to account for that, then as the driver's side front wheel goes up, so too would the tension rod, which will pull the wheel a little more forward, creating a situation to which the car will pull to one side a little more.

Nothing a good alignment guy couldn't fix with adjustable arms and such.

[McCoy]

Forgot to post these up in March... here are my new alignment specs for this year.

The longacre tire pyrometer says everything looks good for temps, RA-1 tire wear looks good after 2 track days, and with a T25 the car felt great on track. We'll see after I get the 2876R on how the car handles in August...

Front
-2.5 camber
8.5 caster
1/16 toe-in

Rear
-1.5 camber
0 toe

[Longfellow]

I just tested out my a different alignment while up north in the mountains. Running 255-40-17 Nitto NT05's.

Front
-2.4 camber
7.5 caster
0 toe (I think?)

Rear -1.8 camber
0 Toe.

It worked beautifully.

[a_ahmed]

Front
-3.2 camber
8.5 caster
0 toe

Rear
-2.2 camber
0.20 Total Toe.

I will toy with it again... car felt better than before... but will see...

[Cory]

That is a lot of rear camber... That seems like it would affect powering out of a turn...

[a_ahmed]

Actually it did the opposite for me. I was having problems before with -1.8, when i increased the rear kept planted better.

As far as I recall increased front neg camber should increase turn in/oversteer, while increased rear neg camber should increase understeer in long sweepers. No? I specifically wanted to try this on purpose so I went up from -1.8 to -2.2 and it seemed good.

[hai1206vn]

Got my H&R front camber bolts today and immediately quit work to install them. These are probably the best bolts out there if you don't want/ can't afford camber plates. Their torque # is even slightly higher than stock strut bolts. I whined at Pepboys for a while and the alignment guy was nice enough to get me this

Front: SPC t/c rods, H&R camber bolts, progress sway bar, re01r 225/50r16
caster 7.4°
camber -2.5° (maxed out on driver side, pass. side can go to -2.8°)
toe: 0.05° (whatever it is in inches)

Rear: all stock arms, stock sway, rt615 225/50r16 (almost gone)
camber LH -1.6°, RH -1.8°
toe LH 0.15°, RH 0.1°

I was particularly happy with the adjustment range of those front camber bolts. My springs are too soft (Nismo s-tune, ~300 F, ~250 R) to be competitive

Edit: I have no pyrometer, but by feeling the tire with my hand I could tell the setting is in the ballpark. It turns a lot better, maybe oversteers a bit too easily now (without the rear bar the rear would roll too much though). F 37psi, R 33psi seems to work according to the "manual" pyrometer.

[a_ahmed]

My latest alignment
Front
Caster: 7.4* (was 7.6*)
Camber: -3.5 one side -4.0 other side (that's what it was set to by Scot at can alignment). Was -4.5 both sides
Toe: 1/8 toe out (was 0)

Rear
Traction arms still 3/8" shortened he said this is good for extra bite in corners
toe reduced from 1/4 to 1/16
camber reduced to -2.0 (was -2.5)

Car feels smooth and fantastic... also got it corner balanced and raised back up from the almost slammed status heh... shocks couldnt handle that... and still 600# front and 450# rear.. and still the 255/40/17 NT01s all around. Car rolls less and is a heck of alot smoother and even comfortable. Feels fantastic, best setup achieved yet with the car...

[Matt93SE]

dial out another degree of camber on both ends and zero the front toe and you might have a decent alignment.
what you have is an Auto X alignment for a squishy suspension, not a road course alignment.

it will turn in great, especially at auto X speeds, but that toe out in front is going to wear inside edges of your tires even more than they already are from the insane amount of camber. it also makes the car very twitchy under high speed braking and less stable on the straights.

is your toe in the rear toe in or toe out?
you DO NOT want toe out in the rear.. not on a RWD car or on a road course setup. fine for Auto X to help with rotation.

[McCoy]

^^^ what he said... and I'll repeat that your expensive NT01 tires will NOT last long with toe-out up front and driving the car on the street.

[a_ahmed]

It's toe in obviously in the rear.

This is a setup by Scot from Can Alignment he is well known in Canada. He has a stock 240sx and he gets low 1:40 times on mosport race track, if I recall he said a 1:38 time. And when i say stock I mean no boltons on his motor, even the stock plastic pipe and stock filter, just megan coilovers and megan adjustable arms (which he just recently got). Excellent driver and well respected for his race car setups... he also has a cascar race car which is pretty bad ass. (fyi, bad ass race cars and such are in the <1:30 range..._ He has a youtube channel 'racecartech' and you can see his 240 and how bad ass smooth he drives. In his words driving like a sunday picnic drive and really he does.

http://www.youtube.com/user/racecartech1

Check his 240 and some of the cars he setup, the miata drive is also him driving pretty spiffy.
He's also a coveted instructor so I hope to get some solosprint help from him next year. The shelby is him instructing someone new. It's incredible how smoothly he drives and sets the best lap times vs other people like me who overdrive aggressively... it's as he says a picnic drive.

He did register on here through me at one point....

This was his suggestion and setup for the likes of cayuga, shannonville, mosport ddt, etc... At first I figured well... that toe out will be freaky to drive on but honestly it's not at all and I've braked from 180km/hr and it was plenty stable. The car drives fantastic though, it's not lazy and it rotates and turns nicely. All that toe in I had in the rear before was what he said was ridiculous and he reduced the rear camber a bit... The front camber is still high but it works and that's all.

The car drives fantastic, doesn't squeal and its definetely faster and smoother. I will obviously find out more in depth on the track.

The tires have been driven on now two events and almost 3 months of driving and they are they still as good as new. I don't intend to keep tires for more than 8 months/a season so this is working out just fine for me.

The car does follow the road a bit more but I love it and am just fine with it. I'll definetely hope to get some instructions from him but unfortunately all the solosprint events are done for this year with the last weekend... so I'll have to wait until next season.

[Matt93SE]

Suit yourself... you've been told countless times. :shrug:

[charles]

I just tested out my a different alignment while up north in the mountains. Running 255-40-17 Nitto NT05's.

Front
-2.4 camber
7.5 caster
0 toe (I think?)

Rear -1.8 camber
0 Toe.

It worked beautifully.

When am I going to see you join us out at an autoX to really push that revived S14 of yours? http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/auto-x-road-racing/241818-autocross-driving-event-schedule.html

[Longfellow]

I cracked the radiator over the weekend. If that hadn't happend I would of been out at the PCA event.

I'll try and make the last one in november.

[charles]

Zhills is slicker than snot, I would suggest Nov 14th Sat with SCCA at Brooksville(requires signup 1 week ahead of time), tons more grip, instruction, and seat time since the turnouts are typically very small.

I'm also running 255/40/17's all around....

[McCoy]

This was my alignment from last year. I only got in two track days on this alignment due to motor and back issues, but felt it was fine for the most part.

Dropping the car off tomorrow AM to be aligned and will probably keep it close to the same setup. I have toe plates now, so I can play with toe out back this year if I feel the need.

Front
-2.5 camber
8.5 caster
1/16 toe-in

Rear
-1.5 camber
0 toe

[logr]

Might consider more toe in on the back. It helps the car plant and go.
The rear gains more camber than the front so I like 1.5-1.75 on the rear. It evens out the temps well.

[McCoy]

I was going to start with zero then add some toe-in for the next track day at SRP. I've run toe-in before but was testing without last year.

[e1_griego]

Autox setup (thought I did a track day at PIR with the same setup)

Front
-2.25 camber
7 caster
0 toe

Rear
-1.5 camber
1/16 toe in

With the nismo diff I have a ton of rear grip (235/255 star spec setup) even in the rain. At packwood this weekend I had top time in the wet (puddles everywhere, by far the wettest autox I've done) at the NWAA practice weekend.

[McCoy]

New alignment...

Front
-2.25 -- Camber
8.5 -- Caster
1/32 Toe in

Rear
-1.5 -- Camber
1/8 toe in

[a_ahmed]

^interesting... tell me how that goes

[McCoy]

Nothing new or exciting, and it'll be tough to compare to older setups as I'll be putting down an additional 100whp :eek:

[Matt93SE]

That's more power than Ahmed puts down altogether. :)

[a_ahmed]

^Really, those new bimmers and 'expensive sports cars' should be ashamed of my lil KA that could ;)

Actually making 150whp :P I know I know... so awesome lol :( I can still spin the rears in second... go figure :D TORQUE BABY! lolll

[Riggle]

Figured there was no need to start a new thread with the gold in this thread.

I put on my new wheels/tires and it really spurred a change in ride height. I went from stock 15's to 17" 5zigen FN's.

The car now has:
F: 17x9 +12, 255/40/17
R: 17x10 +15, 255/40/17 (got sick deal on rims, would rather have 9" and square all around)

My alignment from last year on the 15's is:
F: 2.5* Camber
7.0* Caster
0 Toe

R: 2.0* Camber
0 Toe

Loved the align, have a pyrometer, so dont really need advice on what the tires are telling me about the align.

What I do need though is advice on the ride height situation. I know I can lower the car more but the thought of inducing bump steer via tie rod angle and negative control arm angle has me worried.

I know the control arms should not go past their flat plane, and having the tie rod ends reaching up will cause bumpsteer. It is super winter here in WI so I havent even been able to get the car out to see what it feels like.

My main question would be, do I worry about the front roll center and instant centers? I mean I only auto-x the car and occasionally track it for fun. So how low is too low? I do not want the rims tucked to the fender line, I merely want the tires to have only a 1" gap or so to the fender. Would you guys consider this too low?

Would aftermarket "drift" tie rod ends correct my bumpsteer by relocating the shank/pivot?

The car is more of an auto-x car than a track car. I just dont have the funds to play real track whore.

I also have access to scales so I will be corner weighting the car to finalize the ride height and realign it, but I dont want to lower my car too much and throw off my driving by having crappy angles.

Thanks in advance for reply's. I have completely adjustable suspension also, nothing stock left except tie rod ends, lower control arms.

[Scores240]

I've been driving my car pretty low for 3 years with plenty of auto x and a few HPDE's. It handles amazingly to me. I have stock LCA's and tie rod ends and to me it doesn't seem bad in terms of feeling bump steer.

I think you would be fine at the ride height your suggesting.

[SoSideways]

If you keep stock FLCAs and stock tie rod ends, you will not get bumpsteer, as they both go up and down at the same rate.

If you buy aftermarket tie rod ends like Kazama or SPL and use the supplied spacers, then your tie rods will travel at a different arc than the FLCAs, and this situation will cause bumpsteer.

You can slam your car and not get bumpsteer as long as you keep the tie rods and FLCAs stock, or at least if you use any roll center correction, keep the same correction for the tie rod ends and you'll be OK.

[Matt93SE]

As above, it you change the tie rod ends, you must modify the control arms too. they're currently in alignment. You'll lower them both by the same amount IF you lower them.

over-lowering the car will cause camber gain issues, which is what FUBARs your roll center.

[Riggle]

If you keep stock FLCAs and stock tie rod ends, you will not get bumpsteer, as they both go up and down at the same rate.

If you buy aftermarket tie rod ends like Kazama or SPL and use the supplied spacers, then your tie rods will (is the "not" supposed to be here?) not travel at a different arc than the FLCAs, and this situation will cause bumpsteer.

You can slam your car and not get bumpsteer as long as you keep the tie rods and FLCAs stock, or at least if you use any roll center correction, keep the same correction for the tie rod ends and you'll be OK.

Awesome info, really appreciate it. I can see how this theory applies and makes sense, change the length the arc has to travel in 1 area and they no longer move as a unit.

Also, is that "not" supposed to be there? My reading comprehension is being messed with. I assume it should read "then your tie rods will travel at a different arc than the FLCAs".

I am not correcting you, merely making sure I get the facts/statement right. :cool:

[Riggle]

As above, it you change the tie rod ends, you must modify the control arms too. they're currently in alignment. You'll lower them both by the same amount IF you lower them.

over-lowering the car will cause camber gain issues, which is what FUBARs your roll center.


Another great piece of info! Thanks.

Any books I can read on the subject? I have plenty of racing/driving books...but none on suspension setup, pros, cons, FF, FR, MR ect setups. Most of the books I own are geared toward open wheel race cars, not theory of "street" cars.

[Matt93SE]

http://www.gmecca.com/byorc/designpublicationsbooks.html
Chassis Engineering is one of the standards.

[Def]

I thought that book was pretty lame. Very basic from what I remember. I didn't really get anything out of it.

It might help someone that has less formal technical background though.


Currently reading Milliken and Milliken's Racecar Vehicle Dynamics. It's got some good data.

[SoSideways]

Awesome info, really appreciate it. I can see how this theory applies and makes sense, change the length the arc has to travel in 1 area and they no longer move as a unit.

Also, is that "not" supposed to be there? My reading comprehension is being messed with. I assume it should read "then your tie rods will travel at a different arc than the FLCAs".

I am not correcting you, merely making sure I get the facts/statement right. :cool:

You are correct. That "not" word should not have been there. Typing faster than my brain at that time I guess.

I changed my post to reflect my thoughts post correction, that way n00bs reading my post wouldn't get confused :)

[veilside180sx]

I thought that book was pretty lame. Very basic from what I remember. I didn't really get anything out of it.

It might help someone that has less formal technical background though.


Currently reading Milliken and Milliken's Racecar Vehicle Dynamics. It's got some good data.

Good book...it's sitting on my desk.=)

[Rustys13]

This might not be the place for this but owell. I am wondering about ackerman. I am getting PBM to modify my knuckles for angle and 25mm roll center correction. When you get the angle mod you have 12 degrees of ackerman 52 degrees steering angle. Now is that 12 degrees of ackerman going to give me issues with turn in and steering if i do any sort of grip racing. Thanks in advance.

[Def]

What's the stock ackerman?

12 degrees of ackerman being the extra amount of angle the inner wheel turns vs. the outer wheel?

[Rustys13]

Im not sure but I believe the higher the ackerman is it makes the trailing tire point closer to the same angle as the leading tire. That doesn't really make sense but you might get what I am saying. I just dont want to have my outside tire scrubbing really hard when im not drifting. Essentially I am asking if it will act as thought it is heavily toed in while not drifting.

[djsilver]

Im not sure but I believe the higher the ackerman is it makes the trailing tire point closer to the same angle as the leading tire. That doesn't really make sense but you might get what I am saying. I just dont want to have my outside tire scrubbing really hard when im not drifting. Essentially I am asking if it will act as thought it is heavily toed in while not drifting.

When folks mention Ackerman we're normally talking about positive Ackerman. That causes the inside tire to turn more than the outside tire so it would actually cause toe-out when turning. That's actually a good thing since when turning the car, the inside tire describes a shorter radius than the outside tire. The effects of Ackerman are more pronounced at low speeds. In autocross, us cone-chasers often toe the front wheels out on purpose because we want more steering angle on the lightly loaded inside tire for better turn-in but the rules don't allow modifications to adjust Ackerman. Toe-out is not good for a DD or most roadracers because it makes the car to "darty".

[Rustys13]

ya static toe is the same but while at full counter steer with the pbm kit your trailing tire will have a closer steering angle to the lead tire so it isnt "dragging". I am just unsure if at auto cross this will cause some strange steering issues.

[logr]

That would mean they are reducing ackerman which is good for track and autox because the outside tire usually has a slip angle going which means the more ackerman, the more the inside tire scrubbs across the track.

[josh18_2k]

everything i've read claims production cars dont have enough ackerman for autox, hence all the toe'ing out. high steering angle and slicks = need for pretty big difference inside/outside.

definately makes sense to reduce ackerman for drifting, since theres almost no slip angle on the front tires, and they need to follow pretty big radii at full lock. i would imagine a proper drift knuckle would render less grip during normal (grip) driving.

[Def]

I've always wanted to mess with ackerman to see what the effect is for track usage. One would think you'd want less ackerman than a stock car, but when you think about it some more, some of the corner radii on track are pretty tight compared to what I imagine the car was designed around (lower speed, gradual turns with no slip angle on tires).

I know my E36 M3 would really wear in the inside tread blocks on the front inside from what I presume to be too much ackerman. My S13 shows very even wear on all front tires, so I'm thinking the ackerman works much better for track usage.

[Tom Moore]

Skimmed a bit through this thread & i was wondering what you guys thought of these settings for my car that has to be driven to & from each event.

Front

Camber : -2.5°
Toe : 1/16th toe-in
Caster : +7°

Rear

Camber : -2.0°
Toe : 1/8 toe-in

http://nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?p=43641#post43641

[Matt93SE]

Tom, I like my car with zero toe front and rear. Last time I took it to a race shop and paid them ($$$$$) to set up the car, he put about 1/8 or 1/16" toe in (I forget now) on it and I noticed a huge change in balance that I had to tune out with air pressures and sway bar settings. Front is still at zero toe.

Mine has about the same camber, but I run about +7.5° caster.

I had some issues understeering into T1 at TWS over the weekend, so I dialed the right front camber to -3.5° and it solved that problem. unfortunately the stopwatch didn't notice a difference. I was within 0.03s of my fast lap times on both days. slow, but consistent!

[McCoy]

If you drive the car on the street a little toe-in up front helps, I think I'm running 1/16th toe-in up front and zero out back

Consider less camber out back, I've been runnint -2.5F/-1.5R and the wear and tire pyrometer keep telling me it's just enough camber with RA-1's.

[e1_griego]

I run 0 toe in front, and 1/16 toe-in in the back.

Also -2.5/-1.5 for camber.

half and half street car/autox car.

[Tom Moore]

Tom, I like my car with zero toe front and rear. Last time I took it to a race shop and paid them ($$$$$) to set up the car, he put about 1/8 or 1/16" toe in (I forget now) on it and I noticed a huge change in balance that I had to tune out with air pressures and sway bar settings. Front is still at zero toe.

Hmm, I dont have adjustable sway bars so i might shy away from the toe in...was that toe in front or rear?

I run about +7.5° caster.

Result?

If you drive the car on the street a little toe-in up front helps, I think I'm running 1/16th toe-in up front and zero out back

Thanks for the tip, but the car sits most if the time & is only driven to the gas station then to the event...but i'll consider those settings.

Consider less camber out back, I've been running -2.5F/-1.5R and the wear and tire pyrometer keep telling me it's just enough camber with RA-1's.

Thats the kind of info i would pay money for.

I run 0 toe in front, and 1/16 toe-in in the back.

Also -2.5/-1.5 for camber.

half and half street car/autox car.

Seems to be what im aiming for, thanks!



Edit : So this is what its looking like now, just need to figure out toe

Front

Camber : -2.5°
Toe : 0 -or- 1/16th toe-in
Caster : +7.5°

Rear

Camber : -1.5°
Toe : 0 -or- 1/16th toe-in

[Matt93SE]

Zero toe in the front, tiny bit of toe in in the back.

also keep in mind your camber settings will change based on your tires. Toyo R888 and RA-1 like more camber than a Hoosier. Street tires? no clue since I haven't ever run street tires at the track on my 240..

[e1_griego]

I run street tires with that setup.

Going to be running hoosiers with that setup too.

we'll see how it goes :)

[Black R]

What length for adjustable traction rods?

I'm wanting to do +8deg caster, -2.5 camber front, -1.5 rear, zero toe all around.

Thoughts?

[Matt93SE]

adjust your traction rods for zero bumpsteer.
caster is kinda a personal preference.. +8 is a bit much, but fine for larger tracks. for shorter tracks or auto x, that may be a bit much causing too much camber change in tight turns.

If you're not running power steering, it'll also make a big diff in how hard the wheel is to turn since you're 'jacking' the car up to turn it due to the camber change on each wheel.

[Tom Moore]

Zero toe in the front, tiny bit of toe in in the back.

also keep in mind your camber settings will change based on your tires. Toyo R888 and RA-1 like more camber than a Hoosier. Street tires? no clue since I haven't ever run street tires at the track on my 240..

Well, lets hope it works well with the RS3's

I run street tires with that setup.

Going to be running hoosiers with that setup too.

we'll see how it goes :)

Good luck!

[e1_griego]

I just put rs3s on the back too, excited to try them out.

Car is on jackstands right now, but first autox event for the year (well, for me) is this weekend.

[Tom Moore]

I just put rs3s on the back too, excited to try them out.

Car is on jackstands right now, but first autox event for the year (well, for me) is this weekend.


Nice, lemme know how you like them.

[Matt93SE]

One good thing about the south.. I've run three SCCA Club Races and a LeMons race since Jan. :)

[Tom Moore]

I know this is a bad topic, but what about ride height?

[e1_griego]

One good thing about the south.. I've run three SCCA Club Races and a LeMons race since Jan. :)

:angryface:

I'm at 24.5" all around, maybe a touch over. With 235/40 and 255/40 f/r.

[Tom Moore]

:angryface:

I'm at 24.5" all around, maybe a touch over. With 235/40 and 255/40 f/r.

Ok, im running 15's soon to be fitted with 225/45 RS3's...gap might be ugly but oh well...Tire are $466 shipped so im not going to complain.

[Black R]

adjust your traction rods for zero bumpsteer.
caster is kinda a personal preference.. +8 is a bit much, but fine for larger tracks. for shorter tracks or auto x, that may be a bit much causing too much camber change in tight turns.

If you're not running power steering, it'll also make a big diff in how hard the wheel is to turn since you're 'jacking' the car up to turn it due to the camber change on each wheel.

Bump steer in the rear? Maybe I called them the wrong thing; the front link things in the rear - aren't those traction arms?

And yes I run power steering and love caster.

Also, what does the schassis do under acceleration? Toe out in rear? Thats why you guys run a bit of static toe in to compensate, correct?

[Matt93SE]

The traction arms cause bumpsteer in the rear. that's why you adjust them. you shouldn't have to compensate by fiddling with the alignment.

[Sleepy_Steve]

I know this is a bad topic, but what about ride height?

Different people have different view points. Starting point if you haven't already gone through them are the zilvia / NRR roll center threads. Gives some decent guidelines on how to not royally screw up other things by going too low and what to do in order to reduce the negative effects of going lower

[Tom Moore]

Different people have different view points. Starting point if you haven't already gone through them are the zilvia / NRR roll center threads. Gives some decent guidelines on how to not royally screw up other things by going too low and what to do in order to reduce the negative effects of going lower

Yea, i've read through all the negatives of being to low on forums over the years but i didn't know if anyone has figured out a "standard" ride height to maximize performance on the s13.

[Sleepy_Steve]

I'm not aware of a 'set your frame rails this high off the ground' setting... But I do think you'll figure it out if you start figuring out your current roll centers and how far you're willing to move them.

[Tom Moore]

But I do think you'll figure it out if you start figuring out your current roll centers and how far you're willing to move them.

Gotcha

[Black R]

The traction arms cause bumpsteer in the rear. that's why you adjust them. you shouldn't have to compensate by fiddling with the alignment.

Ahh ok I get it now.

Ballpark for length of traction arms with s13 chassis lowered 2" from stock?

[Def]

+1/4" over stock. Epstein posted up some bumpsteer graphs.

[Black R]

I should probably post a separate thread, but here's my alignment from this past weekend on my s13:

8deg positive caster (tein tension rods are just about maxxed out)
-3deg camber F / -2deg camber R
.10 toe in all around.

I wanted less camber all around, but the adjustment plates in the front can't go any more positive on one side. Perhaps something is bent? :/

In the rear I'm using j30 rear uprights until I can find the downtime to swap over the s14 rear subframe / q45 rear end / q45 rear uprights / and install the rear fork coilovers.

The j30 rlca's are the only arms I have swapped out from stock so far. But I can't get any more positive camber in the rear from the oem eccentric bolts.

[silverbullet]

I've always wanted to mess with ackerman to see what the effect is for track usage. One would think you'd want less ackerman than a stock car, but when you think about it some more, some of the corner radii on track are pretty tight compared to what I imagine the car was designed around (lower speed, gradual turns with no slip angle on tires).



I realize this is posted in Feb, but I noticed you also had a thread on MotoIQ, so this may be of interest to you. Here is some additional stuff on ackerman:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=293944&page=1
there are various other ackerman discussions on the forum also.

[Hypnotik]

How/what are you guys using to measure toe, this is something I've never quite figured out how to do.

[Air]

Too Late to revive this thread?

Did my first "performance" Alignment on my car this weekend. Let me know what you guys think.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i52/chrishobo4/C4EC388B-orig.jpg

Its all in degrees/minutes

Front:
Camber - -2.4
Caster - 6.3
total toe - -0.01

Rear:
Camber: 1.2 (maxed out, e-gay RUCA, rod ends too long)
Total toe - -0.13


The toe in the back was supposed to be -0.06 but the machine got jostled while doing the front. I doubt it is actually that much toe in the rear. I was also going for 7 degrees caster.. Re-tested at the end and it reduced it half a degree. Didnt feel like going back and changing. Have to re-align in a few weeks when i put my rear sphericals on anyways.

Feels good so far. Still really really loose. Turn in is sharper now and it rotates much better mid-corner.

[Jason M]

The longer your RUCA is, the worse your rear bumpsteer is going to be. I would lengthen your trac arm (1/4" longer is not enough) to compensate, but that could add another .1-.2 deg's positve camber. Not sure what subframe you have, but testing on my S13 subframe shows that a track arm of around 8.75" to 9" with -1.5 deg's limits bumpsteer to much smaller level's of toe change.

The rule of thumb for a 1/4" longer track rod does not take into account that everyone is running different camber settings. Next time you adjust your RUCA, look at how much the spindle rotates forwards while lengthening, which pivots the toe arm mount upwards. Lengthening the trac arm simply rotates your spindle rearwards, which pivots the toe arm downwards, putting the toe arm back into the sweet spot of the arc.

[croustibat]

Jason > that is very interesting. I kept wondering what was the use of the rear caster arm, as no one could tell me anything except "dont bother, its no use". Even guys a the alignment place said "huh, we dont do rear caster" .


Can you give more info on that ? the longer te better ? There usually is a tradeof with suspension arms, so i wonder what the catch is. Thanks :D

[ZorRtwice]

The rear caster arm? what is that..the traction arm?

the traction arm controls toe change as the suspension goes about its range of motion. I suppose its similar to a caster rod since it involves controlling dynamic change.

Ideally you want no toe change as the suspension goes about its travel but this is not possible. Im not sure how to discribe the best "cookie cutter setting" but the way to do it is plot the changes in toe throughout the suspension travel, and experiment and find the setting that gives you the least toe change throughout ..and that will be ideal.

The goal when adjusting the arm is to achieve minimal dynamic toe

Correct me if I am wrong.

[Matt93SE]

for the basic setup, that's correct. for a pro-race car with a $25,000 suspension budget, then it's a completely different story.

[croustibat]

Traction arm then i guess. The one that is connected on the top rear uplinks, front side.

The rear one is the toe arm, the "upper middle" is the camber arm ( RUCA? ), the lower one is mostly never changed so i just call it the lower arm.

How do you measure the traction arm, from middle hole to middle hole ? I changed its length to get rid of some bumpsteer (i already have front bumpsteer corrected), and i measured 21cm front hole to hole (not from the center of each as there is a bolt in there, so add a bolt thickness to that). It is around 8.26" . I previously had these set to the minimum which is 7.5", and that was terrible.

it feels a bit better but not that much . I adjusted the front bumpsteer correction sot that toe arms are parallel to lower arm, however doing that to the rear is hard, considering the "lower arm" is not actually an arm ...

I guess i have to do the same to the rear, but what do i have to make it parallel to ? I tried to "guess it" by jacking the car and then jacking a rear wheel to check movement. It still toes out on the first 1/2 inch of travel so i guess it needs longer arm. I am just getting tired of jacking the car :D


My S13 exhibits all signs of too much opening on the front end, it pulls randomly right or left. It gets really worse when braking at high speed, i really have to fight with the steering. Yet i only have 5" toe out front , 7° caster and -1° camber ... does 5 minutes toe out really affect the car that much ? It feels like my steering rack wants to move on its own, and i have to fight its movement. any idea what would create that kind of feel ?

[a250gpguy]

That sounds like a toe problem. 0 toe to toe out on the front will cause the car/steering to "hunt" while going straight. I think some camber conditions can cause this as well but idk for sure...anyone?
Ch

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[240sxTTC]

5min = ~1/32"

Is your 5min per side or total? Regardless toe-out does make the car darty but helps turn-in. I have 245 Hoosiers and run 1/4" toe-out total in the front. A street car with this much toe-out would follow every crack and crown and be horrible to drive.

Another thing to check is the rack bushings and bolts.