Piecing together the Koni 8610 setup for the S13

[McCoy]

OK, I got the rear koni yellows torn apart last night and am starting to figure out what to do here... which seems to be more confusing that the front. After I got the spring and oem topmount off, I find that the shaft size is 10mm, the raised section is 16mm (5/8ths) and there is a 18mm lip for a stock washer to sit on. My issue is that I can't find a bearing sleeve that goes from 10mm to 18mm (remember, this is the I.D. of the Tein pillowmount) or from 16mm to 18mm with a flange on it. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_rear_01.jpg If I reuse some of the OEM hardware then I'll loose alot of travel, not sure how much exactly though, since the tophat will be above everything you see here. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_rear_03.jpg Part of the reason I thought of even using the oem hardware was due to the fact that it places the pillowmount in the right position, since the threaded section of the shaft is only so long. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_rear_04.jpg There are a few other options, including reusing the stock pillowmount if possible for now, that I'm looking into here also, if anyone else has seen this type of setup before and knows how it should go... now is the time to speak ;).

[AceInHole]

I used a bunch of spacers with the D2 rears for mine. I'd imagine you'd be better off running the shaft through a spacer with the Tein pillowball, taking out the stock bushing which kills travel. Run the piston through the plate as much as you can with spacers on top, if you have the clearance up there.

[McCoy]

I used a bunch of spacers with the D2 rears for mine. I'd imagine you'd be better off running the shaft through a spacer with the Tein pillowball, taking out the stock bushing which kills travel. Run the piston through the plate as much as you can with spacers on top, if you have the clearance up there. I forgot that you reused the D2 hardware in the back. So my only concern will be finding a bearing sleeve that works... no one makes a 10mm I.D. to 18mm O.D. sleeve for what I'm needing. If I used a few thick washers on top of the shaft nubbin to give some additional shaft for travel, then use a bunch of washers above the pillowmount to take up the rest of the slack, then I can see that as being a viable option. Thanks... I just need to track down the right sleeve now.

[2Fass240us]

Monty, Can't you just have something turned down on a lathe?

[McCoy]

Monty, Can't you just have something turned down on a lathe? I probably could, but I couldn't find any bearing sleeves that are as small as 10mm for the I.D. that have a O.D big enough to lathe down, that's the biggest issue. What I did find and should work, is using two sleeves.... McMaster Carr has one that goes from a 10mm to 12mm and another from 12mm to 18mm, the total cost of these sleeves is only about $5 and will serve the purpose of centering the strut in the pillow mount. I sent in an email to GC today with a short list of parts that I'll need, hopefully I can have something on my doorstep next week.

[veilside180sx]

I figured you do the two sleeve thing. As long as there is no movement for rubbing it won't be an issue.

[McCoy]

I mocked the rears up, just trying to get an idea of what spring length I'm going to need. I'm not sure where in relation to the stock spring mount the GC sleeve sits, so Richard or PJ will need to voice there thought here. This is with a 8" ERS spring and the strut is fully extended right now. If this is where the threaded collar will sit, then I might be ok with an 8" spring... or will I need a 7" spring I put the other one beside it for reference... http://nissanroadracing.com/files/images/koni%20GC%20rear%20mock.preview.jpg

[McCoy]

This is a crude drawing of how I'm going to do the stack... still need to figure out a few pieces, but this is getting close to what I'll be using. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/Rear_Koni_drawing.jpg

[veilside180sx]

The stock spring is really soft and compresses quite a bit when the chassis rests on it. I think the 8" spring will be too tall, even with using the last 1" of threads on the sleeve.

[McCoy]

The stock spring is really soft and compresses quite a bit when the chassis rests on it. I think the 8" spring will be too tall, even with using the last 1" of threads on the sleeve. So, do you think I should go with a 6" spring then. I'm making an order with GC within the next few days.

[veilside180sx]

I'll have Brian measure his this weekend and see where that takes us.

[2Fass240us]

I'll have Brian measure his this weekend and see where that takes us. Monty, is there any benefit to machining a spacer versus using a stack of SS washers? I would assume that if the I.D. is really close to the shaft O.D., that there would be no advantage. -Andy

[McCoy]

I'll have Brian measure his this weekend and see where that takes us. Monty, is there any benefit to machining a spacer versus using a stack of SS washers? I would assume that if the I.D. is really close to the shaft O.D., that there would be no advantage. -Andy I don't think there would be any difference. The only reason I'm going with washers is because there inexpensive and I can move them below/above the camber plate to get the right amount of drope/travel that I want. I ran this by Scot shigspeed and he liked the idea. the only force/load that the washers will see is from the dampener... at least that's how it's supposed to be.

[McCoy]

Progress is slow right now, still waiting on Scott (Shigspeed) to finish up a few things with GC for my order. I traded a pair of my 350lb springs for some 550lb spring. Also, I might be picking up some 450lb springs from a local guy... I think I'll have a variety of springs to play with now :)

[McCoy]

Put the car up on the ramps tonight and took a few measurement. Measuring the Silkroads from the top hat to the upper strut bolt I got a measurement of 14.5" (no load on suspension) and 13" (loaded). The front spring rates are 333lb, just for reference. Next, I put a pair of 7" springs on the Koni front setup and with the koni insert fully extended my measurement was 12", this is as far as the insert can extend. I can assume that the 550lb springs will not compress as much, so say they'll be 11.5" under load. That tells me that the front of the car will drop by as much as 1.5 to 2" minimum. This is what the front should look like, except with a shorter spring and a donut spacer to center the coilover to the camber plate. With a 1" shorter spring, it looks like I'll still have plenty of adjustment on the threaded body and will be above the tire from my quick measurments. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_front_measurement_01.jpg With the car on the ramps, it looks like I could loose a couple of inches and still be ok ;) http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_front_measurement_02.jpg

[veilside180sx]

Your front end can afford to come down Monty...you were rocking a 4x4=)

[McCoy]

The McMaster-Carr order came in... for the front (top) we have the 16 to 18mm flanged bearing spacer. The rear took a little longer to figure out, I had to use a 10mm to 12mm bearing spacer and press that into a 12mm to 18mm flanged bearing spacer. Also not shown was a 100pack of 1mm washers with a 10mm ID to use in the rear. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/bearing_spacers_01.jpg The front bearing spacer pressed (lightly tapped) into the camber plate... everything fits... bonus. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/bearing_spacers_front.jpg For the rear I placed the flanged side on the bottom of the pillowmount... you'll see why with the 2nd picture below. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/bearing_spacers_rear_01.jpg A small stack of washer to push the pillowmount up high enough so I can tighten the nuts on the top side. The flanged part of the bearing spacer is on the bottom to give a solid surface for the bearing in the pillowmount to sit on. I used the larger washer from the OEM setup for the GC bumpstop to rest against if I ever get the suspension to compress that far... I don't forsee that though with the springs rates and ride height that I'm going with. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/bearing_spacers_rear_02.jpg The GC order should be shipping this week... hopefully I'll be able to test my suspension before there is snow on the ground!!!

[AceInHole]

One thing to consider is putting the washers above the camber plate, in order to reduce the stroke of the shock. It might help keep the piston from bottoming out, at least.

[McCoy]

One thing to consider is putting the washers above the camber plate, in order to reduce the stroke of the shock. It might help keep the piston from bottoming out, at least. I wasn't sure where I was going to put the washers at until I get the rest of the GC hardware... but that is a good point and will make sure to look figure out the best placement before throwing it on the car.

[turtl631]

Very nice thread. I want to do 8610s front/rear on my S14 now to replace my Stances. I'm eager to see how the rest of this project develops!

[McCoy]

A small stack of washer to push the pillowmount up high enough so I can tighten the nuts on the top side. The flanged part of the bearing spacer is on the bottom to give a solid surface for the bearing in the pillowmount to sit on. I used the larger washer from the OEM setup for the GC bumpstop to rest against if I ever get the suspension to compress that far... I don't forsee that though with the springs rates and ride height that I'm going with. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/bearing_spacers_rear_02.jpg From talking to Scott Shigspeed about this setup above, it will not work mainly due to the fact if I hit the bumpstop, the shock will be put through the bearing in the Tein pillowmount. I will shorten the stack of washers up and remove the large washer. I'll know more once everything is here, but basically the bumpstop should rest against the bottom of the tophat. And I sit and wait for the rest of my stuff :(

[AceInHole]

I'm not even running bumpstops in back on my setup :P On the Tein plates, does the spring seat on the plate itself, like the D2's?

[veilside180sx]

I'm not even running bumpstops in back on my setup :P On the Tein plates, does the spring seat on the plate itself, like the D2's? I don't run any on mine in the rear either

[McCoy]

I'm not even running bumpstops in back on my setup :P On the Tein plates, does the spring seat on the plate itself, like the D2's? I'd prefer to run bump stops just for the off-chance I have an off at the track... we have some big old bumps in the run offs that would bottom out the stiffest of suspension. Don't even ask what lies in the section of the track where you shouldn't go off... like ponds and boulders. The bottom of the tein plates are flat, I'll use a hard rubber isolator between the two just to keep the noise to a minimum.

[AceInHole]

Do what I do: run 315/35/R18's in back. They'll bottom out on the tubs before your suspension even comes CLOSE to binding! :D

[McCoy]

Do what I do: run 315/35/R18's in back. They'll bottom out on the tubs before your suspension even comes CLOSE to binding! :D Not sure if they make a 4bolt 18" wheel in the offset I'd need for the S13... at least I've never looked.

[AceInHole]

CCW: any size, any offset!! http://www.jrho.com/sm240/sm240eltoro.JPG There are some other options from JDM-land, but they're slightly more difficult to find.

[McCoy]

After looking at some of the prices of just 18" tires... I'll stick with a 275/40/17 tire for now. If I see a need in the future, and have the funds to back it up, then I'll look into wide 18" tire/wheel selections :)

[McCoy]

I got the gland nuts last night and a few different spacers for the rear. The GC order will be with Scott Shigspeed this weekend and he has to add a few items before shipping it onto me... ah, I wish I had them now. My earlier measurements on 8610's ride height was wrong, I found out that I didn't have the 8610 inserts fully extended, so I'll play with that somemore tonight. The good news is that I can run the 6" springs and perch above the tire to give me that much needed tire clearance that I'll need for wider tires!

[McCoy]

Measuring the Silkroads from the top hat to the upper strut bolt I got a measurement of 14.5" (no load on suspension) and 13" (loaded). The front spring rates are 333lb, just for reference. Next, I put a pair of 7" springs on the Koni front setup and with the koni insert fully extended my measurement was 12", this is as far as the insert can extend. I can assume that the 550lb springs will not compress as much, so say they'll be 11.5" under load. That tells me that the front of the car will drop by as much as 1.5 to 2" minimum. OK, after getting the gland nuts on, I found that I was able to pull the shaft of the 8610 out farther than I thought... what i thought was 12", was actually 14.25", almost the same length as the Silkroads. This means that I can raise the car higher than I thought and still have some droop in the suspension. The gland nuts arrived, here is what they look like, for those that haven't seen them before. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_gland_nuts.jpg I changed the rear up some, I bought another set of flanged bearing spacers (16mm I.D. to 20mm O.D.), flipped them so the flange is on the top side and gives a good surface area for the bearing of the pillowmount to sit on. The original flanged bearing spacer is now on the top side. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_rear_spacers.jpg

[turtl631]

How much should the custom brackets and higher springs help with inner tire clearance? I would love to get some more inboard clearance in front, although i would just hit the inside of the wheelwells under full lock. Do you live somewhere relatively warm? I can't wait to hear about how this all feels when you get it finished. I'm pretty set on selling my Stance coilovers and going with some Koni 8610s next summer, barring any disappointments once you get your setup rolling. I recall seeing veilside180SX mention possibly making some spherical bearing upper mounts of his own design. Any progress on that?

[veilside180sx]

How much should the custom brackets and higher springs help with inner tire clearance? I would love to get some more inboard clearance in front, although i would just hit the inside of the wheelwells under full lock. Do you live somewhere relatively warm? I can't wait to hear about how this all feels when you get it finished. I'm pretty set on selling my Stance coilovers and going with some Koni 8610s next summer, barring any disappointments once you get your setup rolling. I recall seeing veilside180SX mention possibly making some spherical bearing upper mounts of his own design. Any progress on that? I haven't gotten quotes back yet for the camber plate design, I'll post up when that happens.

[McCoy]

With the perch and coilovers above the tire, I should gain about 10mm or more. If I need more I can trim the collar that Richard welded on for the threaded collar to sit on, but hopefully it doesn't come to that. I'm wanting to fit 275/40/17's all the way around...

[AceInHole]

I had tons more clearance inboard, but that was mostly due to the lower flange not being angled quite perfectly. I believe the new flanges are slotted to go from stock to positive camber, giving more wheel clearance. Static camber is lame anyways :P Caster pwns j00.

[turtl631]

10mm would be great. I hate how the front has so much less inboard clearance than the rear. It makes it kind of difficult to run the same size wheel/tire all around. If you can easily fit 275/40/17 up front on an S13, I'll be impressed. Of course, it depends on ride height too, but that's a tall tire which only exacerbates the front tire clearance woes. I have maybe 5mm left inboard between my tires (245/40 on 17x9 +17) and my coilovers. I think if I ran anything bigger than a 255 the tires would rub the coilovers. Agreed on the caster, Aceinhole. I'm running I think 7.5 now and will probably bump it up next time I do my alignment. There really seem to be no disadvantages, unless you need lots of static camber to clear your tires and then end up with ridiculous camber once you add some steering angle.

[AceInHole]

Agreed on the caster, Aceinhole. I'm running I think 7.5 now and will probably bump it up next time I do my alignment. There really seem to be no disadvantages, unless you need lots of static camber to clear your tires and then end up with ridiculous camber once you add some steering angle. I think I'm at like 10deg now by eyeball. I've gotta get my car on a rack to measure it, or just calculate it out. The downside to too much caster is you lose a bit of steering feel with too much input, but overall I've felt as though my car is faster than it rightfully should be :P

[McCoy]

The last time I got an alignment, I had 7.5 degrees of caster IIRC. I'll bump that up to 8-9 next time and drop the camber to 2 degrees. Tire wear for the year looked good, so I think I can knock it down some and still be ok. I'll start with 255/40/17's sometime next year and go up front there as needed. If I keep the ride height up, then I shouldn't have an issue with a 275/40/17... I do live in an area that you can't really get anywhere with a lowered car. I should know alot more this next weekend once I get the struts built and on the car and start taking some measurements. The GC order has shipped : -)

[veilside180sx]

I had tons more clearance inboard, but that was mostly due to the lower flange not being angled quite perfectly. I believe the new flanges are slotted to go from stock to positive camber, giving more wheel clearance. Static camber is lame anyways :P Caster pwns j00. The upper hole is slotted, which would allow negative camber. The lower hole would have to be slotted for positive camber.

[AceInHole]

The upper hole is slotted, which would allow negative camber. The lower hole would have to be slotted for positive camber. If the upper slot comes out enough (equi-distant from the strut's axis, for instance) it'll allow positive camber.

[McCoy]

The GC order arrived... ohh, just 2 more days before I can throw them on my car :D A few GC parts... http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/Koni_GC_parts.jpg The fronts all together... http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_front_complete.jpg A closer look... the big black rubber O-rings, from the first picture is GC's rubber isolator for the G20, it basically sandwiches the top of the spring around the bearing housing of the Tein camber plate. The thorrington bearings is between the adjustable perch and the GC spring and allows things to rotate as needed. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/Koni_front_closeup.jpg The rear together... http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/Koni_rear_together.jpg So Richard, do I need to crop some of the threaded collar off?!? Also, there seems to be an awfully big void between the koni housing and the threaded collar. http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/Koni_rear_collar_issue.jpg

[veilside180sx]

Ah....it just clicked that the rear B13 struts are 2" rather than 1.75" like a rear shock would be. Did GC not ship you an adapter that goes from 2" TO 1.75"? I thought that was supposed to be in the order with the shipment...I'll call you at 9ish.

[AceInHole]

2 things: 1. Where'd you get your torrington bearings from? 2. Are you using them in back? I'm wondering how much they do in terms of unloading spring bind (letting the springs load more consistantly)....

[McCoy]

Did GC not ship you an adapter that goes from 2" TO 1.75"? I thought that was supposed to be in the order with the shipment...I'll call you at 9ish. Yes, that's the black collars (to the left) in the very first picture that you see. They slide into the bottom of the collar and are a tight fit over the strut. But, with no load on the setup the collar just rocks around... not sure how the B14/B15 setups were compared to this. PJ - The bearing is from GC, they use this type of setup on VW's and other cars that can't use a bearing on the topside. This is only in the front setup, nothing in the rear. This is what Shigspeed recommended when he was looking at what I had to work with.

[veilside180sx]

The black collar slides in from either side, did you put it in the shallow or deep side? The deep side should allow the spring sleeve to sit about an 1" or more below the c clip. I use thick o-rings to make up the difference in size for the rest of the shock.(to keep it from wobbeling around)

[McCoy]

The black collar slides in from either side, did you put it in the shallow or deep side? The deep side should allow the spring sleeve to sit about an 1" or more below the c clip. I use thick o-rings to make up the difference in size for the rest of the shock.(to keep it from wobbeling around)The deep side, if not you'd have seen a big black collar below the sleeve in the picture of the rear setup ; -) I put a few of the GC 0-rings on, but there is still a bit of slop... I'll go to ACE tonight and see if they have any larger 0-rings.

[veilside180sx]

The normal rear sleeve for the shocks is only like 2.5" long rather than a 4" long sleeve as well Monty. It's a shame if you have to cut it down though.

[McCoy]

The normal rear sleeve for the shocks is only like 2.5" long rather than a 4" long sleeve as well Monty. It's a shame if you have to cut it down though. I would think I could run it at this length for the time being... since I'll be going to a custom 8610 setup eventually.

[veilside180sx]

The normal rear sleeve for the shocks is only like 2.5" long rather than a 4" long sleeve as well Monty. It's a shame if you have to cut it down though. I would think I could run it at this length for the time being... since I'll be going to a custom 8610 setup eventually. As long as it doesn't bottom out on the the sleeve there should not be any issues. I would definately rather you use a 4" sleeve for the 8610 rear, so don't cut it if you don't have to.

[McCoy]

I don't think I will be able to bottom out a 400lb spring in the rear that easily. I also don't plan on running the setup that low.... at least not PJ low ; -)

[AceInHole]

I'm not THAT low.... my tires just bottom out before the frame hits the ground :P