best all season tires? hitting the tail of the dragon

[Br0k3n]

going to be heading up to the tail of the dragon here next month, but I will die with my nt05's on damp curves. anyone have some recommendations for good traction in damp/wet conditions. was considering the star specs, but I might want to go more of an all season performance tire since I already have a decent track set

currently sitting at 300hp
have 17x9 +17 wheels with fender flares so i can fit a good variety of tires

currently running 235's in the front and 255's in the rear

always run yokohamas in my daily drivers, but i havent had to buy regular tires for this level of horsepower yet.

[SoSideways]

Check out the Federal 595 RS-R tires.

They had the fastest time in the wet out of all the sticky like 200 tread wear "street tires".

In the dry I think they were one of the slowest, but if you're afraid of the damp roads, I think those ones will be good. But they probably will still suck if it's straight up raining though.

[Def]

What's wrong with NT-05s in the damp? I only lost 2 seconds at TWS in the damp on NT-05s vs. the dry. Never felt they were an issue at all, and the 140+ mph braking zone down to 70 mph will definitely show any confidence issues in your setup.


Most really sticky street tires are going to lose a lot in heavy standing water as that's a function of pumping water out, and that means a high void ratio usually wins.

[josh18_2k]

I'd like to see the federal test... I really liked KDW2's in the rain. Total grip Probably isn't the best, but they brOke away predictably, and were easy to drive fast. (225's on an e30 in my case)

[Def]

The 595 RS-Rs seem to be similar to the NT-05 in speed, maybe a hair quicker in the dry. Thought about trying them for the Chumpcar.

[Br0k3n]

guess its leaning more towards the wet

I am really surprised you haven't had any issues with your nt05's def, I lose traction almost instantly just barely turning my wheels in light rain going anything over 20mph, going straight I start to hydroplane over 50mph. Already had several times where I have pulled an unintentional 360 in mid traffic with them on wet roads and that was with me babying them @ 20mph.

the damp they seem to be hold up almost as well as the dry, but I haven't pushed them in the damp yet because of the 360's that have ensued =)

[SoSideways]

Stephen, your car also has not had any alignment done on it lol

Having a good alignment makes your car feel like you're all of a sudden driving a different car :)

[CodyAce]

The 595 RS-Rs seem to be similar to the NT-05 in speed, maybe a hair quicker in the dry. Thought about trying them for the Chumpcar.

I hated the RS-R's...chunked bad, got super greasy, and the sort. To me the NT-05's are MUCH better, but the RSR are much cheaper...On my car going back to RSR would save me 150 bucks...but then again, I don't midn sepdning more for tires.

I was actually considering on my own car to try out the Hankook RS-3 for the next set...

[CodyAce]

guess its leaning more towards the wet

I am really surprised you haven't had any issues with your nt05's def, I lose traction almost instantly just barely turning my wheels in light rain going anything over 20mph, going straight I start to hydroplane over 50mph. Already had several times where I have pulled an unintentional 360 in mid traffic with them on wet roads and that was with me babying them @ 20mph.

the damp they seem to be hold up almost as well as the dry, but I haven't pushed them in the damp yet because of the 360's that have ensued =)

Something else must be fubar with the car, as I've never had an issue with the tires in the rain...in fact I was surprised at how well they worked IMO.

[Br0k3n]

perhaps I am due a decent alignment then. will go and drop it off at the local scca alignment shop for one since i dont have enough time to learn the wealth of knowledge you guys have on suspensions before my trip =)

hopefully they can adjust it enough with the suspension I have to make a difference. only rocking some decent adjustable traction control rods on the front

[SoSideways]

I hated the RS-R's...chunked bad, got super greasy, and the sort. To me the NT-05's are MUCH better, but the RSR are much cheaper...On my car going back to RSR would save me 150 bucks...but then again, I don't midn sepdning more for tires.

I was actually considering on my own car to try out the Hankook RS-3 for the next set...

Was that the 180 tread wear version or the 140 tread wear version of the RS-R?

Apparently, they went back and redesigned the tire's compound and reinforced the sidewalls on the RS-Rs, and now they're rated at 140 tread wear, and those that have tried them liked them.

I just did a search, and one of the big Time Attack Evo guys ran the new 140 tread wear RS-Rs and he's gone through 20+ tires and raved about them. He had used Hankook RS-3s before, and liked the new RS-Rs better.

So hey, maybe you should give them another shot, since they're 140 tread wear, they may not last long enough on your car for you to get all disappointed about lol :D

perhaps I am due a decent alignment then. will go and drop it off at the local scca alignment shop for one since i dont have enough time to learn the wealth of knowledge you guys have on suspensions before my trip =)

hopefully they can adjust it enough with the suspension I have to make a difference. only rocking some decent adjustable traction control rods on the front

Well, like I said to you before, I think your passenger side tension rod is longer than the driver's side one, which causes the passenger side wheelbase to be shorter than the driver's side. This causes the car to handle VERY awkward.

Also, lowering the car without adjusting anything will definitely mess up the toe settings on the car, which makes more of a difference of how a car handles than more than camber/caster and all that stuff.

[AceInHole]

According to the autocrossing street tire community, the Continental DW is the ultimate heavy rain tire, with the R1R being the next best. For all around tires I'd probably go with Dunlop Star Specs or Yokohama AD08's. My daily and Jenna's ST car both have the Hankook RS3, though, and I haven't had much trouble in the rain at full tread depth. They're nowhere near as good cold, though.

[gawdzilla]

how fast are you trying to go on the dragon? lol. a lot of these are hardly "all season" tires, but rather "extreme high performance street summer tires". i recently bought some hankook v12's based on online reviews and price and have been pretty happy with them on the street. they are just "summer tires", not EHP summer tires. so 280 utqg, but probably take on cold and rain a lot better, which is something an all season tire should be capable of.

they're pretty good in the rain too (good tread design) and DTD has an $80/set rebate on them now, which would bring your cost down to right about $100 a tire. i wouldn't track these tires, but for the street i think they're great. my opinion is to grab the 255s all around for $102 a piece :)

[V1A]

I just put a set of Hankook V12s on my daily (330Ci) too and I have been pretty pleased with them. They do plenty well in heavy rain and I've had the opportunity to test that out pretty much everyday for the last 2 weeks or so.

[Br0k3n]

how fast are you trying to go on the dragon? lol. a lot of these are hardly "all season" tires, but rather "extreme high performance street summer tires". i recently bought some hankook v12's based on online reviews and price and have been pretty happy with them on the street. they are just "summer tires", not EHP summer tires. so 280 utqg, but probably take on cold and rain a lot better, which is something an all season tire should be capable of.

they're pretty good in the rain too (good tread design) and DTD has an $80/set rebate on them now, which would bring your cost down to right about $100 a tire. i wouldn't track these tires, but for the street i think they're great. my opinion is to grab the 255s all around for $102 a piece :)

The speed limit is 30mph, probably going to keep it around that (the TN cops are pretty strict on their limits i hear). Some of those corners are pretty tight not to mention being on the edge of a cliff. Probably will end up just staying in second gear the majority of the road

[CodyAce]

I didn't realize they fixed the RSR tire at all, which may be nice as you can't beat that price. I had no issues with NT05, but I like to change to see whats new :D If the RSR are better than NT05 I'm freakin sold.

[SoSideways]

Yeah I hadn't realized that there was a change either. I was around when they first brought the RS-R over to the States, but then within the last year or so I dropped off the face of the Earth cause I just couldn't be bothered with car stuff, to the point of almost selling the car and just buying a rednecked up truck and that's it (and I'm Asian, talk about weird lol).

Anyway, did a search earlier as one of you mentioned wanting to know the performance of the RS-R against the other competitors' tires in the wet, and I couldn't find that one article done by I think Grassroots Racing or something, using a Neon SRT-4 autocross car as the vehicle to test all kinds of tires on, but instead I found out about the new RS-R compound during that search.

I guess it's not the fastest in the wet now with the "new generation" of street legal EHP summer tires (AD08, RE-11, Z1 Star Spec, RS-3, Kumho XS, RT-615K, Toyo R1R), instead of the "older generation" of those same tires (AD07, RE-01R, Z1 Star Spec, RS-2, Kumho MX, RT-615).

For the price though, I think the RS-R has the best performance per dollar ratio, as long as the new version is indeed a much improved tire than the old RS-R.

I mean, seriously, $110.05 each tire in 255/40/17 from onlinetires.com, that's pretty damn affordable :D

[Def]

You were around when the Taiwanese tires hit the scene? NO WAY BRAH!!!


haha - just messing with you

I've never run these, but some local guys talk them up. They're actually not that much cheaper than NT-05s, or at least they weren't a few months ago. I know Nittos are going way up (sadly, since I want NT01s for my next tires).

[CodyAce]

The price is around 150 less than the NT05's...which I have no issues with really. Sigh...I hate buying tires. For some reason I keep wanting the RSR or the RS3 due to more tread from the get go...however I know that it will piss me off as they aren't going to handle as good as the lower tread NT05 will...but is it worth the cost difference I dunno...

The NT05 have lasted me now 4 (or is it 5 can't recall) track days, and 4000ish miles on street...should I complain or be thankful (as I really don't know comparitivly with these LOL)

[CodyAce]

Oh yea, in regard to All Seasons I've got no complaints about the Ziex 912's (which really aren't all seasons) I have on my Maxima either. Good grip, low noise, last a while, and do 'ok' in the snow. Rain they are great. Not to mention stupidly cheap

[SoSideways]

Yeah I had Ziex 912s on the back of my car before, and even in torrential downpour rain, my 240 held grip and cut through all the standing water just fine without hydroplaning.

[Def]

The price is around 150 less than the NT05's...which I have no issues with really. Sigh...I hate buying tires. For some reason I keep wanting the RSR or the RS3 due to more tread from the get go...however I know that it will piss me off as they aren't going to handle as good as the lower tread NT05 will...but is it worth the cost difference I dunno...

The NT05 have lasted me now 4 (or is it 5 can't recall) track days, and 4000ish miles on street...should I complain or be thankful (as I really don't know comparitivly with these LOL)

My NT05s are sitting on the Chumpcar at right around 2/32" of tread depth. They had 18 track days on them and about 1k street miles when I went to RA-1s.

Are you getting even wear with them? My car is likely a few hundred lbs less than yours, but I wouldn't think the wear difference would be that severe.

What kind of toe are you running? I'm at zero up front and 1/8" total in the rear, so street driving gives almost zero wear (I'll still have track pickup rubber on the car with about 150 miles of street driving between events).

[CodyAce]

Yeah I had Ziex 912s on the back of my car before, and even in torrential downpour rain, my 240 held grip and cut through all the standing water just fine without hydroplaning.

Yup I'm on my second set of them, (225/45/17 on G wheels on the Maxima) and really really like them. Snow is a little fishy, but I've yet to know of any Maxima that is good in the snow this side of using snow tires (180 ft lbs of trq and FWD is interesting lol)


Are you getting even wear with them? My car is likely a few hundred lbs less than yours, but I wouldn't think the wear difference would be that severe.

Wear is very good/even, which I am actually very happy about compared to some others. Figure my S14 weighs around 3000 lbs with me in it, so that's a solid 500 or so lbs over you, but not enough to be that drastic like you said.



What kind of toe are you running? I'm at zero up front and 1/8" total in the rear, so street driving gives almost zero wear (I'll still have track pickup rubber on the car with about 150 miles of street driving between events).

The fronts are wearing better than the backs in terms of total tread usage, that's for sure. Front zero toe/rear has 1/16th to 1/8th total in.

I guess maybe they are wearing ok then, the rears are down to the wear indicators and as before the front was better than I thought after really looking at them this morning. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on them/out driving them more than anything.

[Black R]

If you're spinning out in the wet at 20mph, then your suspension is waaay too stiff in the rear, too big a rear swaybar, your toe is out in the rear, or loose nut behind the wheel...?

Deals gap is as hairy as you make it. I usually make the trek a couple times a year, and there's always idiots who have fallen off the side or hit a rock face.

Drive within your limits and you're good. It's mostly 2nd gear with 3rd in a couple spots.

200 treadwear tires are fine up there, even in the wet.

[Def]

Wear is very good/even, which I am actually very happy about compared to some others. Figure my S14 weighs around 3000 lbs with me in it, so that's a solid 500 or so lbs over you, but not enough to be that drastic like you said.




The fronts are wearing better than the backs in terms of total tread usage, that's for sure. Front zero toe/rear has 1/16th to 1/8th total in.

I guess maybe they are wearing ok then, the rears are down to the wear indicators and as before the front was better than I thought after really looking at them this morning. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on them/out driving them more than anything.

My car is probably about 2700 lbs or a little more with me in it, so we're not too far away.

I found the NT-05s to be pretty "precise" on the slip angle they liked compared to most street tires, and they really don't like a ton of it. My current RA-1s like a ton more slip angle than the NT-05s did, even at similar grip.

Mine were wearing very very evenly front to rear (to the point that I never rotated them), and it's hard to look at them and tell which were which except for the greater carcass distortion induced wear on the fronts (the outer edge of the central tread block wears quite a bit due to carcass distortion in these tires, I've had to calm down about half a dozen of intermediate level Corvette drivers who finally start driving fast enough to wear the central tread block like that.. haha).

But yea, sounds like you've got quite a bit more life to go, and they REALLY slow down their wear around 3-4/32 compared to new. And they start getting a little hard and losing some speed, but for a DE it's not a big worry. I think I got double the amount of events going from 4/32 to 2/32 that I did going from 8/32 down to 4/32 on them to show how hard the compound gets towards the end.

[Def]

If you're spinning out in the wet at 20mph, then your suspension is waaay too stiff in the rear, too big a rear swaybar, your toe is out in the rear, or loose nut behind the wheel...?

Deals gap is as hairy as you make it. I usually make the trek a couple times a year, and there's always idiots who have fallen off the side or hit a rock face.

Drive within your limits and you're good. It's mostly 2nd gear with 3rd in a couple spots.

200 treadwear tires are fine up there, even in the wet.

Deal's Gap isn't really "hairy" IMO, it's just you've got 95%+ of the people there driving WAY over their abilities. They start to go fast, their vision drops a little (what people naturally do when they get a little freaked out at the sensation of speed they're not used to), and they make some really stupid mistake at like a 7-8/10ths pace.

Don't even get me started on the kids that go into oncoming lanes for a better "line"(that still sucks, and is usually really early).

I had a modded WRX pass me by going into an incoming lane last time I was up there(and almost hit me as he came back into my lane). He was tossing the car in super early and relying on the car's grip and inherent understeer to keep him from really losing it in every corner. It only took him about 2 miles to put it off the side of the mountain. Luckily he only fell off about 20 ft and landed mostly upright and had lots of trees to slow the fall so everybody was ok. After that I stopped driving up there, as it was too much of a PITA trying to avoid the idiots who had no idea what they were doing and were just excited to "drive fast."

The locals throwing gravel out into the road in braking zones is also an interesting experience, but if you're not really flying you should be fine for things like that. I'm sure that upsets the motorcycle guys a little more than car guys.


Anyway, keep it shiny side up out there, and don't think that's the time to learn to drive fast, as it is NOT the right environment for it.


*edit* This just reminded me of how people would say they don't want to go out to the track for fear of "messing up their car," but would somehow think it's perfectly safe to drive headfirst into incoming traffic for a better "line" on a public road and almost risk a fatal crash as they almost went over the cliff every corner. It's like they didn't even know enough about driving or what a track is like to realize they were pushing their cars in a very very dangerous environment compared to any track on the planet.

[Br0k3n]

I'm just going for the experience, not going to drive that road for speed. Thats why we have road courses, no? =) Anyways, like def said, the people driving beyond their abilities on that road is what kills it. Sounds like I will have more fun just cruising around the smokys while I'm up there!

FWIW BlackR, my koni yellows are only 180* from full soft in the rear, 360* from full soft in the front. Running 300lbs springs in the back, 440's in the front. Wouldnt consider that very hard of a suspension imo

I need to go get a readout on what my alignment is looking like for the fronts and rears then properly set it up before I take the trip, thats about all I can do at this point. gonna grap an extra set of wheels for the trip to save some tread on the nittos

[Epstein]

whoa whoa whoa, what's all this driving fast nonsense about? Tail of the Dragon is all about getting stuck behind a Goldwing dragging footboard at 10* around a turn doing 12mph. I don't know what the deal was, but this past trip I spent 80% of the time behind traffic. Only 1 pass of 6 was more than 50% clear. We were all too lazy to edit our feature film Tailgate of the Dragon from the onboard footage.

I've been on Star-Spec's twice and never had a problem. Others doing just fine were on NT05's and Hankook K110's. Though the Hankooks couldn't keep up.

I'll try to recall the awesome road that we took that had zero traffic on it. It was off the skyway.

[Def]

Yea, the less well known roads around there are way more fun to drive than being stuck behind some ahole going way below the speed limit and blocking people from passing.

[hOngsterr]

i love my RS-R's instant grip but again i only used them once at track, they did get a little greasy but it was still manageable. Plus i want to try out RS-3's also, dik when but i will haha anyone try R888?

[Epstein]

All that I remember about R888's is that they are LOUD.

That road I was mentioning was Wayah Rd in NC. Type that into Google Maps. We started at US19. At the other end is a gas station. We'll try Otter Creek / Tellico next time, which splits off.

Skyway was fun, but the speeds get out of hand if you're not careful.

Also check out Santeetlah Rd, CR1127 outside Robinsville. The last 4 miles (it dead ends) is where they did the TotD hill climb.