Nissan Off-Road Racing?

[rennen]

Hello,

I've been around Zilvia and Freshalloy for 5 years, but became put off with all the drift talk and hype. I'm very glad to have finally found this type of forum.

I have a 89 Nissan 240SX that and have been autocrossing in GS and DSP for 5 years, and have thrown into the occasional rallycross.

http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v14/192/123/15926474/n15926474_30056925_5160.jpg
http://photos-474.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v143/192/123/15926474/n15926474_36699891_8740.jpg

I also used to own the superbeater (RIP):
http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v124/192/123/15926474/n15926474_36257884_6268.jpg

I do alright at local autcrosses, but never really had the money to prep the car competitively. That's when the rallycross bug bit me. I have two National Rallycross Challenge 2nd place finishes, and one National Rallycross Championship. I've become determined to set up my car for RallyAmerica's Group 2 rules and go stage rallying sometime in the next couple years.


I've also been involved in many other forms of racing, I crew for a friend's Spec Miata, and I've also helped build a SCCA ITA 240SX for PFM Racing (http://www.pfmracing.com)

http://www.pfmracing.com/images/Large/new05/240sx/Day_2/IMG_5050.jpg

Anyway, I look forward to my time here and learning as much as I can.

-Matt

[ckcadavona]

I would've never thought of using a 240 for a rally/rallyX car. I've been thinking of taking my Impreza Wagon (GF8) out to a rallyX to see if I'd like it. It'd just complicate things and temp me to spend more money on my cars.

Does a RWD compete in a different class for stage rally? I know it does for RallyX.

Welcome to NRR

[2Fass240us]

Welcome! Nice to have rally representation. Any details online about that ITA build?

Have you had good luck with your 540? I've heard they can be reliability nightmares, especially the clutch.

[rennen]

Welcome! Nice to have rally representation. Any details online about that ITA build?

Have you had good luck with your 540? I've heard they can be reliability nightmares, especially the clutch.

Thanks for the welcome all,

Funny you should mention the 540i clutch :)

I spent all weekend under the car trying to coax the transmission back on. I had the throwout bearing explode and needed to replace the clutch anyway (140k on OEM stuffs). I quickly found that the E34 540i/6 is one of the most rare BMWs out there, and it costs $500 just for a stock clutch. With the dual mass flywheel setup, any aftermarket parings quickly jump into the $2000 range. Which is a bit absurd for a daily driver. M5 stuffs were quite a bit cheaper.

However, when that thing runs, it's hard to get anywhere close to that performance, fit and finish, and feel for the money. The 4.0L V8 has unrelenting acceleration in any gear at any revs, and pulls all the way to redline. It also has that BMW voodoo gearing that makes it seem more powerful the faster you go.

Anyway, enough about that silly car...



Check out build pics here: http://www.pfmracing.com/index.php
(Scroll to the bottom and click on the 240SX, then construction)

The ITA 240 was pretty simple. Gutted everything, welded in a minimal cage to make it light. Delrin bushings all around in the suspension arms and subframe. GC coilovers, and Suspension Techniques sways. Ex. Bob Stretch wheels with 225 hoosiers, Welded diff (Jude's had one in every car he has ran from his ITC Fiat to the AS Camaro)

The motor was built to spec, and ran great with the stock ECU for the first couple races, but once we switched to Jim Wolfe ECU, we started popping motors. I think he's been through 4 KA24E's, one of which only took 2 dyno pulls. So I'll be asking some Engine Management questions shortly on here. ;)



ckcadavona,

Rallycross has separate classing for RWD in stock and prepared classes, however, it lumps them with FWD in the Mod class.

RallyAmerica has two modified 2wd classes, Group 2 and Group 5. The cutoff is 2.5L of displacement, so the 240SX would fit into the upper range of Group 2. And if I can overcome suspension travel, I think become quite competitive. Both classes are "open" classes and allow most modifications you would want. There is a guy up in Canada running a Group 5 S13 with an SR20DET.


Thanks again all, and I look forward to my time here.

-Matt

[ckcadavona]

Where can I get a set of the delrin bushings from the ITA car? Did you use delrin in the subframe bushings also?

[OHH]

I remember your superbeater from a very long time ago. I was always intrigued with it. Why did you choose a 240 ? Was it just there at the time? Cool stuff

[rennen]

Where can I get a set of the delrin bushings from the ITA car? Did you use delrin in the subframe bushings also?

Jude made them on his lathe. I don't think anybody offers them commercially, and its a very small market of SCCA folks who can't increase the metal content of their bushings.



I remember your superbeater from a very long time ago. I was always intrigued with it. Why did you choose a 240 ? Was it just there at the time? Cool stuff

The superbeater was a KA24E I got for free from someone who did an SR swap, a $200 shell, and an entire front end I traded someone a pair of Silvia headlight brackets for. I traded off the pristine interior for $150, and then just beat the crap out of it every way I could. It had enough "character" to be featured in SportsCar a couple times. :cool:

The 240 is a great chassis for rallycross, for all the same reasons it's so popular with drifters, and I found that on the longer, flowing courses there was no way a FWD could keep up with me.

[jmauld]

That's cool that you're doing so well with the 240. I ran my S14 once at a rallycross in the S02 class (2wd, Over 2.4L) I won that class, but wasn't anywhere near the FWD (SU2) or AWD cars. Of course, that was only one event and I was on MXs so it's not like I had Car setup or experience on my side. :)

The surface that's in your signature looks to be a much better surface then the soft dirt that is in this area. It develops ruts bad enough that the only way I made it over them was from momentum.

[ckcadavona]

Does delrin come in different durometers or grades like urethane? I googled and few online sites came up but where did you guys get the material from? I'd like to drop my subframe this winter and make some delrin bushings for it.

What suspensions have you looked at for Rally purposes? I know DMS makes something for 240's but I think it's a tarmac setup.

[Umai Kakudo]

I know some guys here in WA that build custom rally struts for anything using Bilstein rally inserts.

Here is an example for a Merkur

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa89/phlat65/fuellines.jpg

Rear shock mount detail
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa89/phlat65/DSCN0011.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa89/phlat65/DSC_0027.jpg

I've been told this is most cost effective way to get real bombproof dampers for stage rally.

Let me know and I can get you in contact with the guy who make them.

[josh18_2k]

where do you get bilstein rally cartridges?? ive been looking for a while. i've heard they have a piston larger than 36mm..

[Def]

Welcome to NRR! Looks like some fun projects! Although I will have to go on record now and say the E39 is a more ultimate commuting machine than an E34. :p

Does delrin come in different durometers or grades like urethane? I googled and few online sites came up but where did you guys get the material from? I'd like to drop my subframe this winter and make some delrin bushings for it.

What suspensions have you looked at for Rally purposes? I know DMS makes something for 240's but I think it's a tarmac setup.

Delrin is pretty much "solid" from a suspension standpoint. Does not come in different hardnesses. onlinemetals.com has it - it's under the industry name of acetal (delrin is like the kleenex of acetal).

[Matt93SE]

you guys do realize you're bumping a 2 yr old thread, right? :)

... that's some damn nice welding on that cage and shock mount up there....

[rennen]

I know some guys here in WA that build custom rally struts for anything using Bilstein rally inserts.

Let me know and I can get you in contact with the guy who make them.

I know of John, I lurk over on rallyanarchy, and will get into contact with him when it's time for some rally spec suspension.

I killed the black car at one of Kansas' first drift days. I was a little rusty and apexed on a concrete barrier. After a small family medical crisis, I'm back to building a stage rally car. Just recently picked up a completely rust free shell, and should be documenting my long string of poor life choices soon.

[T-Rex]

Where can I get a set of the delrin bushings from the ITA car? Did you use delrin in the subframe bushings also?

The delrin in the subframe and FLCA is fine, but will bind the rear suspension if used.

You should use either a urethane, stock rubber bushings, or use spherical bearings. The latter is expensive, but really the only solution.

Delrin doesn't "flex or give".

[5upra]

Is this the same rennen from midwest240sx(or something like that)...i believe i sold you "my first" 240sx. it had a bunch hail damage, blown motor, red with a silver hatch...think it was $200

[Matt93SE]

The delrin in the subframe and FLCA is fine, but will bind the rear suspension if used.

You should use either a urethane, stock rubber bushings, or use spherical bearings. The latter is expensive, but really the only solution.

Delrin doesn't "flex or give".

I wouldn't put it in the FLCA either. since the T/C rod has a rod end in it (most people's do anyway), the FLCA actually travels in an arc relative to the TC pivot point. a delrin bushing on the FLCA would allow it to freely travel up and down, but wouldn't allow for the arc created by the TC rod.

the stiffest I'd go there is a urethane bushing, but ideally you'd install a rod end in it.

[Def]

Delrin CANNOT be used on the FLCA bushing. That's the bushing that undergoes the most axial/transverse movement during its vertical motion.

Delrin CAN be used on the RLCA inner bushing locations. Those undergo no axial/transverse movement in their arc. The RLCA acts like an a-arm, with a pure vertical movement. All the other bushings in the rear all undergo axial/transverse movement.

[T-Rex]

Actually I had/have NO bind using delrin in the FLCA on either the 240sx or the 300zx. The 300zx has full movement. I recently checked it. Now I do have a spherical bearing in the TC rod end. But the pivot points for the control arm and the TC rod on the zx are pretty close to being in line. I would have to look at a 240 again to see it's geometry.

[Matt93SE]

The geometry is basically the same for the control arm and TC rod for both the Z and the 240SX.
you may not think it's binding cause the factory FLCA is flimsy as a noodle and twists to allow the bolted connection between the TC rod and FLCA to remain intact.

[T-Rex]

Maybe that is the case, but at least there's no bind:D

[Matt93SE]

Sure, but the FLCA isn't made of spring steel either. it's eventually going to break and you'll go WTF did this just break? :D

[Def]

Sure, but the FLCA isn't made of spring steel either. it's eventually going to break and you'll go WTF did this just break? :D

Exactly the same thing that happens with ES urethane bushings on the tension rod. It bends the FLCA back and forth due to its lack of compliance. The new bushing design gets rid of some of that by making the bushing essentially "squishier" with multiple pieces, but at that point, why not just put a rod end on it.

Same thing with the delrin on the FLCA bushing. It might work for a while, but eventually something is going to give, and the whole time you'll have had a pretty crappy solution there.

It's understandable when you can't run a rod end due to class rules, but at that point I'd probably run urethane and lube it liberally a few times a season.

[Matt93SE]

FWIW I've got urethane in my FLCA and haven't had a problem. haven't lubed 'em in 5 years either.