I'm so lost.. lol

[90kacoupe]

This forum is so over my head. I thought i knew quite a bit about suspensions.. but apprently not...

it would be great if we had a sticky or something explaining some of the issues with certain suspension.. like the s13 subframe having anti-squat problems. i seriously want to learn all this stuff. i just dont know where to begin. I've just recently discovered good proof that "jdm" coilovers are junk. so im a little behind.. lol
So where is a good place to start about learning suspension??

[Your Mom]

your not the only one. theres whole forums out there. haha

i know enough to keep it fun. some of the guys on here you wonder why they use these old 240s. :)

[AceInHole]

some of the guys on here you wonder why they use these old 240s. :)

We're poor or buy houses or both.

[sr20goofus]

alot of other forums are corrupted with hearsay and JDM bling....which most people usually think is the way a suspension should be setup without ever actually testing and seeing what works. not even everyone on here will agree on certain setups, its the testing, adjusting, and modifying that takes place here.

[90kacoupe]

im just lost as of now.. i will probably be doing a lot of thinking and researching about all this stuff.. and im not a person that just reads something and takes it for fact.. i have to kind of verify it... and if it doesnt make since.. i question it.. so i guess i just have a bunch of research to do.

[Your Mom]

yeah most of us do the same but after you read some of the stuff you start to just believe everything Def or ace says.

[racepar1]

For a basic education on geometry and set-up refer to SCC magazine's "make it stick" articles. They're a bit dumbed down, but it you really understand the basic principals there it will give you a good base to build off of. If you really wanna learn more start buying suspension/chasis design and set-up books. They are painful to read and understand, but you can learn a lot there too. I only have a fairly comprehensive understanding of the basic and some of the advanced principals, when it gets to formulas and equations I begin to get kinda lost. We all started where you are. I hope this helps you to learn more.

[ecugrad]

How to make your car handle by Fred Puhn

Good book to get started as well. A bit outdated but the basics still apply.

I am also a firm believer that there is nothing wrong with keeping it simple.

[Wiisass]

I never read the Puhn book, but from things I've heard about it, it doesn't seem like it would be something I would spend money on.

If you want good books, Racecar Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken is still pretty much the standard. It's very engineering based, so without an engineering background, you might get lost in some of it, but there's a lot of good info in there. I mean some of it doesn't really apply and there are better ways of looking at some of the things, but for the most part, it's a great book.

Another one, or set, are the Carroll Smith books. A more simplified and easier to understand look at everything, but still pretty technical.

And then there's a whole different, longer list of books that focus on different aspects of vehicle dynamics and some that are more general, but aren't as good as the ones I mentioned.

There's a lot out there and there's a lot of debate on many of the things in vehicle dynamics. Because there are different ways to achieve the same thing and a lot of independent research going on, there are lots of opinions on what is important. I mean even stuff like roll center, there are what most people think of which are the geometric roll center, but there are also the people that think force based roll centers are more representative and then there is the Maurice Olley force lines idea. They're all similar, but slightly different ways of looking at how things work. It depends on how deep you want to get, the deeper you get, the more confusing it gets and the more you start to realize that the things you thought mattered a lot don't matter as much.

[spool_sample]

I never read the Puhn book, but from things I've heard about it, it doesn't seem like it would be something I would spend money on.

http://books.google.com/books?id=cr4IyD5l1NQC&dq=how+to+make+your+car+handle&pg=PP1&ots=95HspQfNdX&sig=HzW8Gu9LqJU8XNMZIjxf7FmVpmk&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=How+To+Make+Your+Car+Handle&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail

Definitely outdated, but I suppose the basics still apply to the complete newbs.

I love the pic of the VW Rabbit apparently running 20lb springs in the front since that outside wheel is at like +5 camber. :D

[veilside180sx]

RVD is a fabulous book.=)

I never read the Puhn book, but from things I've heard about it, it doesn't seem like it would be something I would spend money on.

If you want good books, Racecar Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken is still pretty much the standard. It's very engineering based, so without an engineering background, you might get lost in some of it, but there's a lot of good info in there. I mean some of it doesn't really apply and there are better ways of looking at some of the things, but for the most part, it's a great book.

Another one, or set, are the Carroll Smith books. A more simplified and easier to understand look at everything, but still pretty technical.

And then there's a whole different, longer list of books that focus on different aspects of vehicle dynamics and some that are more general, but aren't as good as the ones I mentioned.

There's a lot out there and there's a lot of debate on many of the things in vehicle dynamics. Because there are different ways to achieve the same thing and a lot of independent research going on, there are lots of opinions on what is important. I mean even stuff like roll center, there are what most people think of which are the geometric roll center, but there are also the people that think force based roll centers are more representative and then there is the Maurice Olley force lines idea. They're all similar, but slightly different ways of looking at how things work. It depends on how deep you want to get, the deeper you get, the more confusing it gets and the more you start to realize that the things you thought mattered a lot don't matter as much.

[Def]

I need to pick up Racecar Vehicle Dynamics sometime. It's pretty $$$ from what I gathered in undergrad, and I was always more interested in the ICE side of things so I never bothered with it.

[veilside180sx]

I need to pick up Racecar Vehicle Dynamics sometime. It's pretty $$$ from what I gathered in undergrad, and I was always more interested in the ICE side of things so I never bothered with it.

I bought mine from amazon since it was the cheapest place and shipped quickly.

[Wiisass]

It's cheaper if you're an SAE Member. But SAE Membership for professionals is $100/year I think, but it does come with a free magazine which is actually pretty decent. And they sell a ton of other books of interest on everything automotive engineering related. They also bombard your mailbox with seminar announcements, book releases, updates, etc. I really want to start going to some of the seminars, but they're further away and kind of expensive, but would be a great networking/learning environment.

[Def]

Well, I'm not really in the automotive field, and doubt it'd be wise to start with the looks of the domestic car industry, so I'll probably skip the SAE membership. heh

It would probably be neat to go to a seminar that isn't about hybrids or the other crap that seems to be so prevalent in the auto industry right now.

[Wiisass]

They have a lot of different vehicle dynamics seminars. With the seminars, as popular as Green Engineering is, the seminars are still about a lot of different topics. I mean even with green stuff taking over in a lot of areas, there is a still a basic structure of designing cars that will not change. Interestingly enough, one of the recent Vehicle Dynamics International magazines had a big article about how the vehicle dynamics engineer can contribute to the green movement.

[ecugrad]

I never read the Puhn book, but from things I've heard about it, it doesn't seem like it would be something I would spend money on.


It is CERTAINLY not anything but a "starter" book. If you don't know anything but what you have read on the internet, jumping right into Milliken is gonna confuse and frustrate the hell out of you.

[90kacoupe]

alright.. i'll probably try to pick up those books sometime.. but i ran into some problem with my n/a ka.. im getting compression (from the cylinder) in my coolant. so this means either 1. headgasket (which is brand new) 2. cracked head or block (which seems unlikely since i didnt notice it, and the engine looked amazing when i tore it down) so idk.. I JUST WANT TO AUTOX!!!! but w/e thats just the way things go..

[Steve_S14]

Im in the same situation as far as suspension goes, thought i knew a lot more than i really do. although i have managed decent setups for race cars in simulation based computer racers, i still have a LOT to learn!

def. gotta get my hands on some of the books mentioned

[90kacoupe]

i think my suspension is going to start with the s14 subframe swap.. since well.. i have an extra. i cant find those conversion inserts. i thought spl made them but i had no luck on thier website..

EDIT: after some more reasearch it was touge factory that had them... but i may try to make a set.. its always better when u make stuff..

[a_ahmed]

Yeah it would be cool if you made them, the bushings i mean, but the s14 subframe apparently from what i remember reading was inferior to the s13 and s15 s subframes... still if you can make those bushings like tougefactory ones you'd be in business, i want them for my s15 swap... down the line :) Until I can fetch an s15 subframe that is.

[Steve_S14]

is the s14 inferior because of those rubber bushings on the rear of the diff?

[veilside180sx]

The S14 subframe has better geometry than the S13

[a_ahmed]

In that case I stand corrected, richard knows more hehe

[90kacoupe]

i did some more searching on this and i came up with that the s14 and s15 subframe are the same other then the arm mounts are boxed in on the s15.

[a_ahmed]

That is cool news to know then :) I didn't know that.

[BigOdom1]

in that case you could box in an s14 correct? i have never had an s15 around to visualize nor would i notice unless both were off the car next to each other. i have the solid diff and subframe from SPL and they rock.

[Wiisass]

That's not what I've heard about the S14. I've heard that the toe curve is totally different versus the S13 and S15 making it worse. It might have better geometry in other aspects, but if the toe curve is that bad, it wouldn't be worth swapping.

But I don't know for sure, I never measured an S14 subframe, so I really can't say how much different it is or how bad it would be.

[veilside180sx]

That's not what I've heard about the S14. I've heard that the toe curve is totally different versus the S13 and S15 making it worse. It might have better geometry in other aspects, but if the toe curve is that bad, it wouldn't be worth swapping.

But I don't know for sure, I never measured an S14 subframe, so I really can't say how much different it is or how bad it would be.

I haven't played with the toe curve, but I know the LCA geometry is better. The S13 is typical of all Nissan's made during that time period where anti-dive is concerned. Most of which was corrected on the next chassis update (S14/R33/etc)

[ckcadavona]

Besides CNC Aluminum what else could one make the bushings out of while maintaining reliability? Delrin, urethane, etc.?

[WilloW]

You're not the only one that's lost.

[90kacoupe]

Besides CNC Aluminum what else could one make the bushings out of while maintaining reliability? Delrin, urethane, etc.?


i've seen alot of people make motor mounts out of a urethane.. so if i can come up with some type of pressing houseing i will be able to make some out of urethane.. but i'll see what i can do.. im pretty crafty when it comes to making stuff work.