8611 Install pics

[Def]

I've had the pics for a while, but I wanted to ensure I had everything all squared away before posting this up. I hit all the high points, so with this info most people should be able to do an 8611/8610 install in about 1-2 hours without an issue.

I'm using ebay camber plates, shaft sleeves supplied by Richard(thanks for the replacements!), GC tophats, and Torrington bearings under the springs.


Here are all the components laid out from top(left) to bottom(right). Nevermind the lack of Torrington bearings under the springs. There's the sleeved nut that comes with the camber plates on the left, followed by the flanged sleeve to get the ID down to the 14mm Koni shaft, hardened 16mm ID washer that comes with the camber plates, a 2" OD washer I drilled a 14mm hole in to distribute forces from the hat to the other washer, a GC tophat(which was a PITA to procure), bumpstop that comes with the Konis with 1/2" trimmed off(trim off the "big" end!), then the usual spring, collar, perch etc.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2900/koniinstall013kk1.jpg


You can't put the load of the suspension on the bronze sleeve flange, so you've got to cut it off. I got lazy and used a cutoff wheel on mine, so it was a jagged cut... and I dripped molten bronze on my finger in the process - that was not comfortable. Without the flange you can insert the sleeve into the camber plate.

You must also sand down the sleeves a bit to fit inside the camber plate bearings. The sleeves are oversized slightly at about 18.01-18.02mm, so you'll need to take them down a bit so they fit inside the plates. I sanded with them some 80 grit paper for about 5 mins a sleeve and they slipped right in.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3949/koniinstall016qm7.jpg


Here it is after taking the sleeve down a bit, notice no flange on the sleeve, so now the spherical bearing can take the load.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5198/koniinstall017ye2.jpg


Here's what the Torrington bearing and two hardened washers look like. This is where I bought mine:

http://www.amazon.com/Torrington-NTA-4052-Needle-Bearing-Assembly/dp/B000MNC6BG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&m=A2Z187ZEXJCQMT&s=industrial&qid=1206253636&sr=1-5

http://www.amazon.com/Torrington-TRA-4052-Needle-Thrust-Bearing/dp/B000MNA9S8/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&m=A2Z187ZEXJCQMT&s=industrial&qid=1206253636&sr=1-21

You need 1 bearing and 2 washers per corner.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1448/koniinstall019ug5.jpg


Slap it all together in the order I pictured earlier, and then you need to hold the shaft of the Koni and torque the nut on the camber plate. I used an 11mm wrench on the Koni shaft and a 7/8" wrench on the camber plate. You can't put much torque on it this way, because the Koni shaft is an odd size(it's slightly smaller than 11mm, but bigger than the next metric or SAE size). I ended up putting a bit more torque on them with a pair of vise grips holding the shaft while they're on the car. Be careful doing this!

I want to point out that these camber plate bolts and the gland nuts on the strut housings NEED LOCTITE!!! Hit the gland nuts on the strut housing with something inserted into one of the holes to tighten it up if you don't have a tool, but put some loctite on it too. I had mine loosen up. The struts should be tight in the housings. If they are not, they will need a shim to tighten things up(shouldn't be needed, just mentioning).

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2282/koniinstall022kb2.jpg


All buttoned up:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7848/koniinstall023ca0.jpg


Ride height, about the same as I've been running for the past year. Any lower than this seems a bit counterproductive on stock geometry. My LCAs are facing downwards just a bit, so you lower it from here and the roll center is going to start dropping rapidly.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4400/koniinstall029tl6.jpg


Another ride height:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6550/koniinstall030sp1.jpg


Travel at this height:

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3390/koniinstall032lm8.jpg


Looks like plenty to me, as by the time I'm really on the bumpstops the other front corner should be off the ground. Richard has moved the flanges on the new strut housings up a bit, which should give even more travel, which is good.


All in all, the car feels great with these dampers. I highly recommend going this route, as you won't find anything this nice for an S13 that comes from JDM land for less than $2k for sure. I can't wait to get some 8611s out back and full spherical bearings in the uprights to complement the front setup now.

[WilloW]

Nice, thanks for the pictures. They explains everything. Now I'm all anxious to get my setup together.

[a_ahmed]

Will 8611 really make that much of a difference in the rear? Great write up by the way. I just woke up/got to work, so I'll read it all later, but I skimmed through it. Very cool.

I am wondering though how we can get the parts individually as i heard stories how gc doesnt wana sell individual parts... like the tophats i forget if it was you, someone posted that link it was 50 bux just what we need, then caster/camber arms can be purchased for quite cheap, heck even springs one can get them from hyperco or something, then the bearings yeah.. but the spring sleeves thingamajig from gc, we cant get it individually right... thats what im wondering also..

It's VERY good what you are doing, to break down literally the whole package in bits and pieces label everything and make it visual as opposed to text, diagrams/illustrations can speak more than a thousand words when describing something technical/mechanical.

I don't doubt it like you said that it would take more than 1-2hours to assemble it all. Also you mentioned to use copper grease or something to prevent any issues on the camber plates or something like that? I forget what was mentioned. It would be good if we gathered clearly everything in this thread all the little nifty things that were mentioned in all our other threads across this forum

Also what is loctite? Some kind of glue/grease thing?

[Def]

There are a few sources of the tophats. The Techno Toy/Tuning whatever hats are an option, and they have a torrington bearing already included in them, but they need something to space the load o ut on the bearing as was discussed when they were brought up.

I meant Loctite threadlocker, Loctite is a brand name, just thought everybody would know what I was talking about. Just get the blue Loctite/Permatex threadlocker - you can get it at any autoparts/hardware store.

[spool_sample]

Are these the newer housings with the extra camber angle at the lower mount? If so, how's the tire/wheel clearance?

[Def]

Thought I was forgetting something.

These are the new housings with slightly more camber angle. I have 17x9 +15 and 235/40-17's. Plenty of clearance as you can see. I'd say you could probably fit a 17x9 +25 and still be fine. I have 5" 7.5 kg/mm springs, so anything longer than that is going to get the perch getting closer to the tire.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1901/koniinstall035ac2.jpg

[a_ahmed]

hmm way i did calculation before comparing mccoy's setup to what i want i would have 2mm more clearance than his 275/40/17 setup with a 285/30/18 18x10.5+15 setup... but now looking at your setup it worries me, i think its just the angle im not looking at it right since 17x9+15 and 18x10.5+ would make the 18x10.5 not fit if i see right... im not sure what was changed... He was fitting 17x9+36 with 275/40/17 he can correct me...

[veilside180sx]

hmm way i did calculation before comparing mccoy's setup to what i want i would have 2mm more clearance than his 275/40/17 setup with a 285/30/18 18x10.5+15 setup... but now looking at your setup it worries me, i think its just the angle im not looking at it right since 17x9+15 and 18x10.5+ would make the 18x10.5 not fit if i see right... im not sure what was changed... He was fitting 17x9+36 with 275/40/17 he can correct me...

Monty could only squeeze 2 degree's of camber with the plates maxed out. I added camber at the flange, which means you have to give up some inside clearance to do it.

[spool_sample]

hmm way i did calculation before comparing mccoy's setup to what i want i would have 2mm more clearance than his 275/40/17 setup with a 285/30/18 18x10.5+15 setup... but now looking at your setup it worries me, i think its just the angle im not looking at it right since 17x9+15 and 18x10.5+ would make the 18x10.5 not fit if i see right... im not sure what was changed... He was fitting 17x9+36 with 275/40/17 he can correct me...

Def has Richard's newer housings that have some camber angle already dialed in at the lower mount, while McCoy's are at 0, so there is going to be less inboard space available.

You could get more space by using camber bolts to pull the wheel away from the strut and then move the plates in more (probably what I'm going to do to fit 17x9 +22 w/ 255/40/17) or have them slotted to do the same thing.

EDIT: Beaten to it.

[veilside180sx]

This is 17x9 +22 with a 235/40/17. You can see the tire is not close to touching anything. I think you should be good Andrew.

http://home.comcast.net/~mobileinstallation/100_0259r.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~mobileinstallation/100_0260r.JPG

[Def]

Yea, you should be fine on inside clearance with a 17x9 +22, the 255/40's will be pushing it on the outside of stock S13 fenders though. If things end up being a little tight for whatever reason a 3mm spacer should take care of it.

[spool_sample]

Yea, you should be fine on inside clearance with a 17x9 +22, the 255/40's will be pushing it on the outside of stock S13 fenders though.

Good thing I have an S14. :p

In any case, I have some 5mm spacers and an extra set of camber bolts, so I should have enough options to make the fitment work.

Def, those are 2.25" ID springs?

[a_ahmed]

I hate s14 owners. So that means no more 275/40/17 for mccoy or 285/30/18 for me lol... :( The max front camber i'd want to run is like -3 and id like to run about +8.5 caster...

[Your Mom]

you don't want 18's anyway! :)

nice write up def. I agree with the +22 and 255's. should fit, as i think next set of tires i'll get will be 255 all around. even if i like the look of the slight stretch of the 235.

[veilside180sx]

I hate s14 owners. So that means no more 275/40/17 for mccoy or 285/30/18 for me lol... :( The max front camber i'd want to run is like -3 and id like to run about +8.5 caster...

Just means you'll be doing more fender rolling/pulling.=)

[a_ahmed]

Well, I want to run 18's because of the wider choice of well wide low profile tires. They should have frickin 275/35/17 tires readily available whether R comps or street tires haha... and I know 18s are the future both racing-wise and otherwise at the moment, that's where the marketting hype is going forward to and again wide choice of tires albeit expensive but prices will go down... 17s are cheap but not alot of size choice.

I need fat rubber in the rear for my next year project (LSx... lots of torque) therefore I don't want to like run 255 front and 315 or 335 even rear for what i plan :(... jrho fit 295/30/18 front lol... thats almost there, but.. after seeing aceinthehole's setup perform well.. i figured id go with 285/30/18 as its nice and not tall, very nice low profile... should be a fun tire.. costly but ultimately fun.. heh

I intend to replace the fenders anyways so fender rolling is not much of an issue :P My left/driver's side fender is cracked lol.

255/40/17 is a nice tire and its sidewall is 102mm, a 285/30/18 has a sidewall of 86mm, thats pretty sweet. The 285 is also 7mm shorter, pretty cool too.

Also RPF1 18x10.5+15 is 19lbs... thats pretty slick, 4x set of that i was quoted at 1300$ (best price after shopping around maybe can get better), pretty sweet deal imho.

[spool_sample]

Well, I want to run 18's because of the wider choice of well wide low profile tires. They should have frickin 275/35/17 tires readily available whether R comps or street tires haha... and I know 18s are the future both racing-wise and otherwise at the moment, that's where the marketting hype is going forward to and again wide choice of tires albeit expensive but prices will go down... 17s are cheap but not alot of size choice.

I need fat rubber in the rear for my next year project (LSx... lots of torque) therefore I don't want to like run 255 front and 315 or 335 even rear for what i plan :(... jrho fit 295/30/18 front lol... thats almost there, but.. after seeing aceinthehole's setup perform well.. i figured id go with 285/30/18 as its nice and not tall, very nice low profile... should be a fun tire.. costly but ultimately fun.. heh

I intend to replace the fenders anyways so fender rolling is not much of an issue :P My left/driver's side fender is cracked lol.

255/40/17 is a nice tire and its sidewall is 102mm, a 285/30/18 has a sidewall of 86mm, thats pretty sweet. The 285 is also 7mm shorter, pretty cool too.

Also RPF1 18x10.5+15 is 19lbs... thats pretty slick, 4x set of that i was quoted at 1300$ (best price after shopping around maybe can get better), pretty sweet deal imho.

What you want to do would still be doable on an S13, just gotta be willing to get creative and work at it. Flares can go a long way, and they look pretty cool if you take the time to do it right (like on Don Nimi's car).

http://www.pdm-racing.com/imag/racecar/tm01_big.jpg

[veilside180sx]

For the record...Don wished he had 18's, after having those 17's made.

[Def]

Good thing I have an S14. :p

In any case, I have some 5mm spacers and an extra set of camber bolts, so I should have enough options to make the fitment work.

Def, those are 2.25" ID springs?


They're 5" long 2.5" ID 7.5 kg/mm Eibach springs.

[spool_sample]

They're 5" long 2.5" ID 7.5 kg/mm Eibach springs.

Where the heck did you find 5" long 2.5" ID springs at? I can only find 4" or 6" springs in that ID, and the only 5" ones are 2.25".

[Def]

They come on RSX and EP3 Civic Si GC kits, so that's where I got mine. RSX guy looks like he was coilbinding them pretty good(they are the front springs), but they aren't coilbinding for me so far. Then again, I probably have 300+ lbs less on each front corner than an RSX.

[vw_nissan]

Def,

Can you explain why you can't put the suspension load on the bronze sleeve flange? If it is sitting against the bearing, it shouldn't pose a huge issue?

[McCoy]

The bronze sleeve will deform and fail... ask me how I know this one :)

[spool_sample]

Interesting. I was going to put the sleeve in through the top of the plate and then tighten a nut down on top of it (since the Tein sleeve nuts have too small of an ID). Don't know if that's any different from putting it through the bottom like you did, Def... I'm a newb to this stuff. :p

I guess my only option is to tap out the Tein nuts? Or...?

[McCoy]

The bronze sleeve will deform and fail... ask me how I know this one :)
Let me rephrase this statement, since I was in a rush when posting it before... in a past suspension setup (it was a Sentra) I had used a bronze sleeve that put the load of the car on the sleeve and it deformed the sleeve... I caught this later on and fixed it.



Spool_Sample - if you use the flanged bronze sleeve like I did, you are ok. The one's that I used, the same one that Richard supplies now with his kits, don't put any of the load of the car on the sleeve...

The flanged part of the sleeve is sandwiched between the bearing and top nut, nothing will go wrong with the setup this way. Also, the sleeve doesn't go all the way down, just enough to help center the strut in the Tein camber plate.
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/bearing_spacers_front.jpg

[Def]

I used the same sleeves supplied by Richard. If you look at the top nut that's supplied with the ebay camber plates, it has a ~5mm long turned down portion that fits inside the bearing(and threads right on the Koni shafts). So technically this centers the strut shaft inside the bearing, but me being the anal engineer wanted extra support just in case it does see a bending load, so I cut down the flange and pressed it into the camber plate bearing.

The nut's turned down portion also made the sleeve go in the bottom.

[McCoy]

Ahh, so the supplied nut from the camber kit worked with the Koni 86xx strut... lucky you!

For anyone else that has to use the nuts supplied by koni, then the bronze flanged sleeve does not need to be modified...

[AceInHole]

Hmm... I ended up sanding down the bronze sleeve so the flange was flush. I've got my front springs supported by it. I've only driven 500 miles so far but I think it's still intact. I'll check up on it this afternoon.

[a_ahmed]

Back to the 255/40/17 on 17x9+22 VS 285/30/18 on 18x10.5+15 fitting with this setup on an s13... here's what happens:

http://www.1000rims.com/rt_specs.jsp?item=Wheel-Tire%20size%20comparer&showRim1=1&showTire1=1&sw1=255&ar1=40&bd1=17&rd1=17&rw1=9.0&et1=22&showRim2=1&showTire2=1&sw2=285&ar2=30&bd2=18&rd2=18&rw2=10.5&et2=15&text1=&text2 (http://www.1000rims.com/rt_specs.jsp?item=Wheel-Tire%20size%20comparer&showRim1=1&showTire1=1&sw1=255&ar1=40&bd1=17&rd1=17&rw1=9.0&et1=22&showRim2=1&showTire2=1&sw2=285&ar2=30&bd2=18&rd2=18&rw2=10.5&et2=15&text1=&text2)=

Long link I know... but profile becomes 16mm smaller (nice), overall tire becomes 7mm shorter, tire would be 8mm closer... 22mm outer clearance further but aparently backspace 11mm deeper (that would bring it 12mm closer to suspension?)... hmm

[Def]

I can't imagine the little bronze flange being happy with full suspension loads for very long. The yield strength of SAE 841 bronze(what these are) is about 11-14 ksi. I couldn't find hardness info for some reason(likely because it's sintered, and the manufacturing would greatly affect hardness), but 11 ksi yield on what is essentially a ~22mm OD x 2mm thick ring is not exactly a robust design.

They're fine with the flange if you aren't putting the spring load to them, or they are installed on the top of the spherical bearing.


And of course the standard disclaimer applies, this is only what I did, if you change any elements of the setup you might need to use your noggin and come up with an alternative solution.

[McCoy]

I can't imagine the little bronze flange being happy with full suspension loads for very long. The yield strength of SAE 841 bronze(what these are) is about 11-14 ksi.
agreed, of course I'd recommend a setup that did not put the weight of the car onto the bearing of the camber plate.

They're fine with the flange if you aren't putting the spring load to them, or they are installed on the top of the spherical bearing.

This is how mine is installed and how it was recommended by Scott Shigspeed who builds suspension from scratch for alot of the sentra guys (autocross and road racing).

[AceInHole]

Yeah. It'd be nice if I had a steel insert to shove into there. I'd actually rather have the spring sitting on the monoball (plate in contact to) to keep it straight, whereas having it directly on the camber plate is going to distort it a bit depending on the angle of the strut. Deluboz plates are cheap enough to replace that I'm not even worried about wear on the ball.

[Def]

I'm pretty sure I found an Aurora sized bearing that'll be a direct replacement for the Deluboz plates, but I can't say for sure until the time comes to pull that sucker out of there and look for a new one.

[Wiisass]

agreed, of course I'd recommend a setup that did not put the weight of the car onto the bearing of the camber plate.


Having the whole assembly connect to the chassis through the bearing is the way it should be, assuming that the bearing can take the load and if it can't, it should be replaced with one that can.

This will keep the spring and strut axis constant through wheel travel and will not put any additional side load on the strut due to weird loading of the spring with wheel travel.

[McCoy]

Having the whole assembly connect to the chassis through the bearing is the way it should be, assuming that the bearing can take the load and if it can't, it should be replaced with one that can.
I was going off what I'm been lectured on from GC and others... The GC plates put the load of the car through the plate and not the bearing. Of course I've seen two variations of the Cusco plates... one that puts it through the bearing and the other through the plate.

This will keep the spring and strut axis constant through wheel travel and will not put any additional side load on the strut due to weird loading of the spring with wheel travel.
Good points indeed... I guess my next setup I might look into going this route.

[Def]

I was going off what I'm been lectured on from GC and others... The GC plates put the load of the car through the plate and not the bearing. Of course I've seen two variations of the Cusco plates... one that puts it through the bearing and the other through the plate.


I wouldn't ever take what GC does as an example of how to do it "right." One thing is for sure, they do not have engineers making design decisions on most of their products, or if they do, they should be publicly flogged for being jackasses.

They do all sorts of sheetmetal destroying things to BMWs, and only occasionally do they learn by their customer's expensive empirical testing of their products and redesign them.

[Blair]

So what goes between the plate and the spring seat?

[Def]

I'm not really following you... what plate?

[a_ahmed]

I think there's still confusion especially amongst the newer people and well other's who don't have the setup. I hope to buy this soon :)

What I think we really need is photographs of every little bit labeled and then a diagram representing in sequence what goes where in case of blair and others who may not know or have previous experience. Furthermore not everyone has previous camber plates/caster plates, as in my case, I am still not sure what I can actually get from GC...

like for example check this out, this is a kit for a taurus:

http://shosource.com/catalog/images/ground_control_coilover.jpg

It comes with the following:

4 Threaded spring riders
4 Lower spring perches
4 Eibach springs
4 Upper spring perches
2 Strut Bearings
All Necessary hardware for installationBut I bet you most people don't know what each one of these things are, where to get them, what to ask for from GC or how they go together haha. Sounds newbish but that's the reality. Yeah I know, this is meant for people with a diy mindset, but alot of people come here who have passion, eagerness but just no knowledge or mechanical expertise; although in the later case I would rather hand it off to a professional then let the average guy try to put together such a vital automotive component but you get my point.

Then again my own case, I've never put together a GC kit, so this will be my first... and I can't wait :)

[Def]

I already posted a pic of all the pieces from the strut nut to the spring hat in order, go look at the first post.

There are a bunch of different ways to setup these struts, and this was just a general guide on how I did it. Half the fun of modifying a car is putting your own style on it IMO, so don't be afraid to do a little reading and form your own opinion and formulate your own path/solution.

[a_ahmed]

Haha I didn't realize you placed them on the couch pic all in order *blush* my bad... I just re-read what you said too and it all made sense more.

Btw, where and how exactly do the torrington bearings go?

Also can the sleeves and such be purchased seperately from GC?... because I remember how some of you guys were complaining of bad customer service from GC when asking for individual pieces...

I should be getting my tax return money this monday hopefully..im so frickin excited man.... i cant wait to get these puppies hehe... even though my wife is less excited lol :(...

[Blair]

I'm not really following you... what plate?


The camber plate. On my B13 with GC plates the spring seat mates right to the base of the camber plate with a conical washer. I looked at Spool_sample's stuff today and can't see how the uppers seat is supposed to be located.

[Def]

Haha I didn't realize you placed them on the couch pic all in order *blush* my bad... I just re-read what you said too and it all made sense more.

Btw, where and how exactly do the torrington bearings go?

Also can the sleeves and such be purchased seperately from GC?... because I remember how some of you guys were complaining of bad customer service from GC when asking for individual pieces...

I should be getting my tax return money this monday hopefully..im so frickin excited man.... i cant wait to get these puppies hehe... even though my wife is less excited lol :(...

The torrington bearings go on the GC spring perch(gold thing on the red collar). So under the spring.


I had no luck at all getting anything separately from GC. Sounds like you have to call in favors to get that.

I think Richard has access to most Koni components that can be used as a substitute if you're trying to piece stuff together, I'd contact him before you start buying stuff.

[a_ahmed]

hmm ya... i guess ill have to have him chime in... cause i have none of the wonderful hardware you guys have :-/ So far the only feasible purchase is the dampers and housings... everything else still remains a mystery if GC does not sell a kit of sorts, i can always get springs from hyperco or the torrington bearings from amazon.. then out of many choices a camber/caster plate...tophats from that site whats it called i ahve to check the posts.... but the rest... remains a mystery

[Def]

The camber plate. On my B13 with GC plates the spring seat mates right to the base of the camber plate with a conical washer. I looked at Spool_sample's stuff today and can't see how the uppers seat is supposed to be located.

I use a 16mm hardened thick washer that came with the Deluboz camber plates between the spherical bearing and a 14mm ID 2" OD washer I made to support the top of the aluminum spring hat. If I ever take it apart I'll toss in a little 14mm ID big of titanium tube to center the hardened washer, but it works fine as it is, plenty of articulation.

[turtl631]

You just want to have as much Ti on your car as possible.

[Def]

This is true... very true. Might make some Ti brake pad shims for whatever calipers I end up keeping. Low coefficient of thermal conductivity ftw.

[a_ahmed]

Nice pic I found:

GC tophat left and techno toy tuning tophat right with integrated torrington rolling bearing :):

http://www.dimequarterly.tierranet.com/tech/projectKA/tophats_compared.jpg

What I am wondering I think it was turtl who was saying he will need to get some kind of conical spacer or something to get this proprely working to distribute the forces correctly. He could chime in on this i suppose.

Then whats on their site:

http://www.technotoytuning.com/media/t3/products/upper_hat1.jpg
http://www.technotoytuning.com/media/t3/products/upper_hat2.jpg


The Camber Plate Upper Hat System is available for any car using coilovers. It can also be utilized with most other camber plates on the market, including Cusco and Cusco-Clone camber plates.
Camber Plate Upper Hat System consists of 2 upper hats, 2 hardened washers, 2 needle bearings and two upper race washers.
Camber plates are not included!

50 bux...

[Def]

I said that about the conical washer. You need to distribute force across the face of the bearing to have it work correctly and withstand the loads.

[a_ahmed]

What kind of conical washer did you suggest or is it a treasure hunt for all still?

[Def]

Depends on what camber plate you're using, but I doubt you'll find something like that off the shelf. You could also just stack a few washers ontop of each other for the same effect.

[a_ahmed]

You talking about something like this:

http://www.cometkartsales.com/store/chassis/cpa/images/hrstconical.jpg

http://www.cometkartsales.com/store/chassis/cpa/b&fconical.htm

http://www.horstmanclutches.com/images/accessories/conical_washer.gif

http://www.horstmanclutches.com/index.php?page=accessories

[Def]

Well, the top OD should be about the same as the camber plate spherical bearing, and the bottom OD should be about the same as the torrington bearing.

[Wiisass]

How do people take a good idea and screw it up. If those bearings aren't in the right place and loaded correctly, they won't do anything. And it looks like they're on the part of the camber plate that doesn't even spin.

[ckcadavona]

I'm not sure if the techno toy plates are like this but in this picture you can see a goldish spacer that sits in between the plate and on top of the torrington bearing inside of the tophat. I thought this was a good picture to compare to the previous one of the the techno toy plate.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r96/ckcadavona/IMG_5228.jpg
It's hard to see but the area with the grease all over it is where the goldish spacer above sits and the spacer is concave on the side that sit against the plate and flat on the side that sits on the torrington.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r96/ckcadavona/IMG_5246.jpg
Double post but I figured it was on topic. Hope this helps...

[a_ahmed]

^ What kit is that from?

[turtl631]

So that setup transmits all load from the spring directly to the plate, not through the spherical bearing. I can't see how this articulation would transmit load evenly.

[a_ahmed]

soo.. the tophat torrington bearing idea is poo?...

[veilside180sx]

Ckcadavona's camber plates are Ground Control's 2nd revision for the S chassis

[a_ahmed]

So wait a second... groundcontrol sell the whole kit?... upperhats, camber plates, sleeves, springs, etc... all in one ?

[Def]

How do people take a good idea and screw it up. If those bearings aren't in the right place and loaded correctly, they won't do anything. And it looks like they're on the part of the camber plate that doesn't even spin.

Not really following you here except on the improperly loaded part... The torrington bearings on the top of the spring hat will just make the rotation occur on the hat to camber plate vs. the spring perch to spring.

[Wiisass]

But the whole assembly should be rotating. If it's not, there's going to be premature wear somewhere. You want everything from the top pin down to the mount on the spindle moving the same. Unless they're just their to help with spring loads and allow the spring to rotate as it compresses, then they aren't doing their intended job.

[ckcadavona]

So wait a second... groundcontrol sell the whole kit?... upperhats, camber plates, sleeves, springs, etc... all in one ?
Yup, I think they retail for 299.

[veilside180sx]

Yup, I think they retail for 299.

I can get them for less though=)

[a_ahmed]

wtf LOL, then whats the point of spending so much $$$ on individual parts if gc sells springs, tophats, sleeves, and camber/caster plates for 299 hahaha aand veilside can hook me up hint hint :P All thats needed extra then is the torrington bearings (amazon link = cheap) and voila...

I thought the kit did not exist for an s13/s14... so everyone was struggling to get pieces and so we had to piece it together especially for the koni 8611 setup or something...

I mean if there are some benefits in using better parts than the GC ones... then okay I don't mind piecing it together (eg; hyperco springs which would be lighter/more consistent or something than eibach ones... this is my assumption but i dont know anything lol, I fall for marketting hype -- eg; swift springs). Better camber plates if they give better movement, better travel, why not.... and if possible to get that technotoy tophat with the bearing in there if its beneficial and i dont know honestly if it is and how to get it proprely working...

Otherwise just add the torrington bearings in the bottom of the spring and we're good :) I think?

Can't wait to get home to check if my tax return cheque has arrived mwhahahahaha... buying time...

You got PM richard :)

[ecugrad]

I have the Techno Toy camber plates and I can confirm they do work.

There are 5 parts to the setup

Camber Plate
HAT
Bearing
Thick washer
Thin washer

Install order
Thin washer--> Bearing-->Thick Washer (all go into machined area of hat)

When installed this way, ~1/2 of the Thick Washer sits above the hat. This rests against the bottom of the camber plate allowing it to turn nice and free

I am not saying this is the BEST way to do this but it does work.

[Wiisass]

So does the thick washer rest up against the camber plate that doesn't move or is it up against something connected to the spherical bearing that has the freedom to move?

[ecugrad]

So does the thick washer rest up against the camber plate that doesn't move or is it up against something connected to the spherical bearing that has the freedom to move?

Thick washer rests against the camber plate

Why would it need to "move"?

[Wiisass]

Because the shock doesn't stay at that angle during travel. That's why there is a spherical bearing at the top. So when it's like you have it, when the damper changes angle with wheel travel, the spring puts and additional bending load into the strut because of the way the hat is loading the spring.

[Def]

wtf LOL, then whats the point of spending so much $$$ on individual parts if gc sells springs, tophats, sleeves, and camber/caster plates for 299 hahaha aand veilside can hook me up hint hint :P All thats needed extra then is the torrington bearings (amazon link = cheap) and voila...

I thought the kit did not exist for an s13/s14... so everyone was struggling to get pieces and so we had to piece it together especially for the koni 8611 setup or something...

I mean if there are some benefits in using better parts than the GC ones... then okay I don't mind piecing it together (eg; hyperco springs which would be lighter/more consistent or something than eibach ones... this is my assumption but i dont know anything lol, I fall for marketting hype -- eg; swift springs). Better camber plates if they give better movement, better travel, why not.... and if possible to get that technotoy tophat with the bearing in there if its beneficial and i dont know honestly if it is and how to get it proprely working...

Otherwise just add the torrington bearings in the bottom of the spring and we're good :) I think?

Can't wait to get home to check if my tax return cheque has arrived mwhahahahaha... buying time...

You got PM richard :)

The "coilover kit" from GC retails for $399, and the camber plates retail for $299 IIRC(separately). I wish all that stuff was only $300...

[a_ahmed]

^thats for front and rear i assume

[Def]

4 corners on the CO setup, fronts only on the camber plates.

[Steve_S14]

The "coilover kit" from GC retails for $399, and the camber plates retail for $299 IIRC(separately). I wish all that stuff was only $300...

THAT'D BE NICE!

[ecugrad]

Because the shock doesn't stay at that angle during travel. That's why there is a spherical bearing at the top. So when it's like you have it, when the damper changes angle with wheel travel, the spring puts and additional bending load into the strut because of the way the hat is loading the spring.

The stock top hat/bearing doesn't move like that

[Wiisass]

Doesn't move like what? Doesn't change front view angle with wheel travel? Yes it does. The stock top hat has a large rubber bushing that isolates where the damper mounts to where the top hat mounts to the chassis. This rubber allows movement. It's not ideal and it puts bending loads on the strut. But it's a stock setup.

And the stock setup has a bearing surface so that the upper spring perch can rotate against so that the whole spring and damper turn as one assembly when you turn the steering wheel. And this is different than those camber plates because this bearing surface is on the damper side of the rubber isolator seperating it from the chassis. So if can flex when it needs to. As compared to the camber plate where the bearing surface for the spring upper seat is on a part that is rigidly connected to the chassis.

Is that what you're trying to say?

And anyway, look at the angle of the damper relative to the camber plate just when the car is sitting there. Is it perpendicular to the plane of the camber plate? If not, it's already loading the spring funny.

[turtl631]

And, that's why I'll be using washers or a spacer to transfer load from the Torrington on the tophat to the spherical bearing. No bending loads on strut at all, and hopefully the bearings will be replaceable so if all this loading kills them, I can slap in new ones.

[Wiisass]

There's still going to be bending loads. A strut by definition sees bending loads. But you will be helping to eliminate additional bending loads. There will still be bending just due to the design of a MacP strut setup. As well as from the spring is the axis of the spring is not inline with the upper ball joint and center of the contact patch.

But there isn't much you can do about that stuff. Besides switch to a suspension that isn't a pain in the ass. But you can not add extra bending loads or forces that the damper shouldn't be seeing by putting this stuff together correctly.

[turtl631]

That's what I meant- no funky added loads.

[ecugrad]

Doesn't move like what? Doesn't change front view angle with wheel travel? Yes it does. The stock top hat has a large rubber bushing that isolates where the damper mounts to where the top hat mounts to the chassis. This rubber allows movement. It's not ideal and it puts bending loads on the strut. But it's a stock setup.

And the stock setup has a bearing surface so that the upper spring perch can rotate against so that the whole spring and damper turn as one assembly when you turn the steering wheel. And this is different than those camber plates because this bearing surface is on the damper side of the rubber isolator seperating it from the chassis. So if can flex when it needs to. As compared to the camber plate where the bearing surface for the spring upper seat is on a part that is rigidly connected to the chassis.

Is that what you're trying to say?

I guess I need to take a closer look at the left over stock hats, I didn't think they had a rubber bushing.



And anyway, look at the angle of the damper relative to the camber plate just when the car is sitting there. Is it perpendicular to the plane of the camber plate? If not, it's already loading the spring funny.

Its perpendicular as far as I can tell.

[turtl631]

I'm pretty sure I found an Aurora sized bearing that'll be a direct replacement for the Deluboz plates, but I can't say for sure until the time comes to pull that sucker out of there and look for a new one.

Really? I took some measurements, albeit with the bearing still in there, and it seems like a really weird size. The ID is right around 18mm, but the OD seems to be about 33.3mm. That's closer to the OD for most 14mm ID COM bearings out there (34mm), which is actually better because then there would be no need for sleeves and flanged nuts. But based on my ghetto caliper measurement, it looks like 34mm bearings might not fit in there.

[Def]

Well you're right on something, it's not a COM series bearing son. :D


I think it was a GE or GEZ series bearing. I'd have to measure it and look again.

[turtl631]

Ah, I lose. I thought COM was another name for spherical bearing, didn't realize it was a series designation.

[Def]

When you rich doctor, remember sensai Def from which you learn very very much car knowledge. Give him GT3 you will.

[charles]

Bumping this old thread to thank Def for the detailed Torrington info.....

I bought Carl's (ckcadavona) old Koni/GC combo and definitely had the coil binding/popping action same as he did.

Installed the torrington bearings today I ordered from Amazon... took 10' of backing up then turning the wheel to tell a difference, no pops or binding. The steering already felt loads lighter going from my POS wornout coilovers to this setup. It seems even lighter now after putting these bearings on.

Honestly I think it's too light......not much feedback on what the front tires are doing compared to my 350z for example with heavier steering......

I also discovered today while setting my front toe that the shaft on my passenger side that goes between the rack and the tierod end is bent pretty bad.

Would this just be considered the inner tie-rod on the S13 setup?

[veilside180sx]

Yup, that's the inner tie rod.

Bumping this old thread to thank Def for the detailed Torrington info.....

I bought Carl's (ckcadavona) old Koni/GC combo and definitely had the coil binding/popping action same as he did.

Installed the torrington bearings today I ordered from Amazon... took 10' of backing up then turning the wheel to tell a difference, no pops or binding. The steering already felt loads lighter going from my POS wornout coilovers to this setup. It seems even lighter now after putting these bearings on.

Honestly I think it's too light......not much feedback on what the front tires are doing compared to my 350z for example with heavier steering......

I also discovered today while setting my front toe that the shaft on my passenger side that goes between the rack and the tierod end is bent pretty bad.

Would this just be considered the inner tie-rod on the S13 setup?

[Def]

Bumping this old thread to thank Def for the detailed Torrington info.....

I bought Carl's (ckcadavona) old Koni/GC combo and definitely had the coil binding/popping action same as he did.

Installed the torrington bearings today I ordered from Amazon... took 10' of backing up then turning the wheel to tell a difference, no pops or binding. The steering already felt loads lighter going from my POS wornout coilovers to this setup. It seems even lighter now after putting these bearings on.

Honestly I think it's too light......not much feedback on what the front tires are doing compared to my 350z for example with heavier steering......

I also discovered today while setting my front toe that the shaft on my passenger side that goes between the rack and the tierod end is bent pretty bad.

Would this just be considered the inner tie-rod on the S13 setup?

It does make the steering lighter, but the alternative is a very tight steering that's all from friction and really heating up the powersteering system.

[SPiG]

You could depower the rack.

[charles]

You could depower the rack.

I've never driven a 240 set up this way but I'm assuming it's probably fine at track speeds but not so much for AutoX use?

[Def]

Looping the lines and a breather to relieve
Presssure kinda sucked on the track when really picking up speed. It'd suck
Bad at autox.

[SPiG]

If you do a true depower, taking the rack apart, cutting the seal, packing with grease, it should not be too bad I wouldn't think/am hoping.

[Def]

It's still a lot of effort with a set of big tires and the subsequent large scrub radius that comes with them on our cars. It wouldn't be bad at all if you're using some 205's on some 7" wide wheels, but put some serious tires on 9"+ wide wheels and you're increasing cornering forces AND the lever arm it's acting on.

It was enough to make it stand out as a negative point of the car on track IMO.

[98koukile]

Bumping a good thread here. What are you guys using to grease/lube/whatever the torrington bearings? I'm thinking like a graphite powder maybe? Mine have been on for a week and they already seem to have more friction

[Ruff Ryder 6]

i just got mine in and i'd like to second that question^^

[a_ahmed]

well i drove mine for 3 weeks and it was like baby ass smooth and light, i drove it recently after winter storage, it feels a bit heavier. Could be my imgination I take it we should maintenance it once in a while.

[McCoy]

I have been using wheel bearing grease recently, in the past I was using a copper grease. I pull them once a year, clean them with gas/carb cleaner, and relube them.

[LAWL]

I tried some HHS2000 which is highly adhesive lubricating oil (basically like sprayable wheel grease) and they started binding again within a week. Used WD-40 just recently and havn't heard anything in over a week. We'll see how that goes.

[98koukile]

I wish I could seal them in something that wouldn't restrict movement but that's probably wishful thinking. So far I'm very pleased with my front setup though, just need rears now

[Def]

Bumping a good thread here. What are you guys using to grease/lube/whatever the torrington bearings? I'm thinking like a graphite powder maybe? Mine have been on for a week and they already seem to have more friction

I used some SAE 20 wt light machine oil on mine(just a bit), and they were still well lubed when I took them apart after about 9 months and maybe 1-2k miles(yea, it doesn't get driven much lately).

They had some grit in them, so I'm going to blast them with some aerosol cleaner(maybe even WD-40) and then re-oil every 6-9 months from now. I'm using them in the rear since I have the Vorshlag front spring hats now.

[WilloW]

Hey Jacob, how's the Vorshlag spring perches working out for you? I still haven't installed mine yet. Did you get the race or the street version?

[Def]

They're working fine for me. I got the race version and just chopped off a bit of the supplied camber plate spacer since it rested nicely on the spherical bearing of the camber plate.

[SoSideways]

Which Vorshlag camber plates and stuff did you get to work on your S13 Def?

I don't see any Nissan apps on their site...

[WilloW]

Which Vorshlag camber plates and stuff did you get to work on your S13 Def?

I don't see any Nissan apps on their site...

There's none, you'll just have to modify them a bit.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Y52Xj2gQPDM/Sa8r5txh1CI/AAAAAAAAA3I/DtNNDkLCxyw/s640/DSCN1465.JPG
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Y52Xj2gQPDM/Sa8r5EXepcI/AAAAAAAAA28/OmB0IMg22Rw/s640/DSCN1461.JPG
I think Def hacked the whole nub off which I will likely do when its time for me to put mine together.

[Def]

Which Vorshlag camber plates and stuff did you get to work on your S13 Def?

I don't see any Nissan apps on their site...

Just look for a BMW E36 front spring hat. 861x struts have a 22/14mm square shaft.

You can use them as is on the eBay (deluboz or whatever) plates, but I cut off about 1/4" to give a little more travel while still maintaining plenty of spherical bearing articulation.

Will had larger bearings in his project Mu plates, so I turned down a portion to center everything and have it fit. If it doesn't work and he cuts that bit off, they'll be just like mine that I modified.

[JRas]

What about a 17x10 +18? I barely clear with Teins :(

I think the evo rotor may of pushed the wheel further out a little bit though

[veilside180sx]

What about a 17x10 +18? I barely clear with Teins :(

I think the evo rotor may of pushed the wheel further out a little bit though

It's going to be really close with the v3's as well. 17x9+22 is about perfect fitment. The 17x10 +18 has a little more room on the inside than Monty's effective 17x9.5 +28, but he slotted the holes a touch for his. Your wheel has 9mm less clearance on the strut side than the +22 9" wheel.