Shock options

[kaje]

I have been looking to find whats out there for options for quality shocks out there. from what I have been able to find there are only really 3 options out there.

Koni 86's $1500 ish
Koni 28's $4300 for just shocks and nothing else
Motons $5750

I am not such a fan of the 86 setup, but I definitly like the other 2, but I really rather not spend quite that much for shocks.

Does anyone know any setups in that $3000 gap that dont have the standard JDM high compression rates for a S14 240sx?

[turtl631]

What's wrong with 8611s?

[veilside180sx]

BTW 2817's are more than that.

If you are truly only interested in the shock options (not struts) you have quite a few.

Penske, Ohlins, Koni 2812LB, etc. You'll have to get them revalved to match your setup, but it's doable.

Your other option are the Aragosta setup from SPL. I would get the dyno sheets for them though, to insure it's what you are after though.

[kaje]

What's wrong with 8611s?

86's lack some repeatability and need to be rebuilt more often. They also run a needle valve. The set up kinda runs me the wrong way, if you really want to know more about my personal feelings about it, you can PM me, lol

I would also like to get into some 3 way or 4 way shocks. price might keep me away from that though.

I have been able to price out the 28's at 4300 for both front and rear shocks, so I just guessed at $300 for fabrication and springs but I guess I did a horable guess now that I think about it. After the shock price, I didnt really look any further. I rather have the motons for that price.

[ecugrad]

What is the car to be used for?

[kaje]

Penske, Ohlins, Koni 2812LB, etc. You'll have to get them revalved to match your setup, but it's doable.

Your other option are the Aragosta setup from SPL. I would get the dyno sheets for them though, to insure it's what you are after though.

I talked with SPL. they said I had to buy the shocks to get a dyno sheet, I have tried to contact Aragosta, but I havent had any luck. so if you have any ideas who to bug, I would love to hear it!

I am not a fan of Penske at all.. from what I have heard the tolerance they have with there shocks is kinda huge, so its easy to have shocks that dont really match.

I have been looking for Ohlins, but I have been having issues. from what I have heard the Ohlins from JDM land arnt real Ohlins, and are set up with HUGE compression settings, with no rebound. I have seen pics of a stock replacement shock from, but havnt been able to find any more information then that.



The car right now is an AutoX car with a little HPDE's, but thats just what I am doing temorary, it will be a Road course car when my work settles down.

[vw_nissan]

Can you elaborate your opinion about the Koni 86s¿ Have you had any bad experience with them¿

[kaje]

Can you elaborate your opinion about the Koni 86s¿ Have you had any bad experience with them¿

I have not yet used the 86's, they are fine shocks, they are alot better the 90% of the stuff out there. but they are more of a budget setup. the tech they used does have some flaws, but if you can accept that, they are fine. I am not a shock engineer, and I am not gonna try to act like one, I have just enough information to be dangerous to my wallet. If you want my partialy educated OPINION, feel free to PM me.

I am just looking for what else is out there.

[veilside180sx]

The Ohlin's manufacturered in Japan are genuine Ohlins products as they are made by Ohlin's and not an outsourced third party. I confirmed this with an Ohlin's engineer at PRI this year, because I had heard the same. The damper design is slightly different though, but that's more because the JDM setup is a lower level product than the dutch built ones.

I talked with SPL. they said I had to buy the shocks to get a dyno sheet, I have tried to contact Aragosta, but I havent had any luck. so if you have any ideas who to bug, I would love to hear it!

I am not a fan of Penske at all.. from what I have heard the tolerance they have with there shocks is kinda huge, so its easy to have shocks that dont really match.

I have been looking for Ohlins, but I have been having issues. from what I have heard the Ohlins from JDM land arnt real Ohlins, and are set up with HUGE compression settings, with no rebound. I have seen pics of a stock replacement shock from, but havnt been able to find any more information then that.



The car right now is an AutoX car with a little HPDE's, but thats just what I am doing temorary, it will be a Road course car when my work settles down.

[Def]

I haven't heard anything about the 86s needing to be rebuilt often? They sure seem more sturdy than my friend's Advance Design DAs that DO need a rebuild after 10-15 races(which is lame).

Not much more different than a Yellow/Sport upon casual observation, so I don't see what would cause them to be rebuilt more often.


IMO, if you want something better than the 8610/8611 setup all around, either a set of custom valved Bilsteins or Motons is the next step up, and it's quite a step as you're seeing.

Koni 28s are pimp, but $$$$ as was mentioned.

[kaje]

The Ohlin's manufacturered in Japan are genuine Ohlins products as they are made by Ohlin's and not an outsourced third party. I confirmed this with an Ohlin's engineer at PRI this year, because I had heard the same. The damper design is slightly different though, but that's more because the JDM setup is a lower level product than the dutch built ones.

Thank you, I will have to look into this some more, and find out how adjustable they are.

Also the only dutch ohlins I have found have looked like stock replacements, I havent been able to find any specs, so you know if this is right? Huge front springs with what I guess would be alot of compression before they hold the weight of the car.

[veilside180sx]

The dyno's I saw from these...I wasn't exactly floored by. The 8611's have a much more effective curve.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Jgrandjean03/OhlinsCoilovers3.jpg

Ohlin's will make you a set of bolt on's...but I'm not going to say how friendly the price is.=)

[kaje]

Ah ok, these were all I found for ohlins.

http://rcweb.net/gallery/data/1035/medium/PC210066.JPG

[veilside180sx]

I'm familiar with those, but the ones above are still JDM built Ohlin's. The S chassis PCV are still JDM as well.

You can get dutch built ones, but they'd be custom.

Ah ok, these were all I found for ohlins.

http://rcweb.net/gallery/data/1035/medium/PC210066.JPG

[AceInHole]

The answer is:
You have 8611's (which actually are around $2000 with all the hardware) as the entry level into performance shocks. The middle-ground you're trying to find is the $5000 mark, where you have basic Motons or Koni 28's. You can double or triple that price with Motons or Ohlins, but the truth is that you'll gain virtually nothing without the proper equipment (datalogging units with a boat-load of sensors, and your own shock dyno).

In the end, unless you're getting yourself into professional racing, there's no reason to go beyond Koni 28's or Moton 2-way's.

[Wiisass]

Penskes are awesome, I don't know where you heard that they have a tolerance issue but I've never heard anything like that. Some tolerance is a given between two dampers, it's near impossible to get two dampers to behave totally the same all the time, there are just too many factors.

And why do people think needle valves suck? Tons of dampers use needle valves? But like anything else, the tolerance to which they are manufactured plays a huge role in how well they work. You can't group needle valves from chinese $400 coilover setups to needle valves on a Penske or Ohlins damper.

The 8611 is the best double adjustable strut insert for the price. There are some compromises, but unless you plan on spending $1k plus just for the strut then that's the best you're going to get. I wish there was more available but no one cares about struts and the people that do are willing to pay the dollars for the high end stuff.

[kaje]

I am just tring to find something betten the 1500 and 6k mark becouse that is kinda a large gap.

veilside180sx, I checked on the Ohlins, they are single adjustable, with large compression numbers just like any other JDM shock. I didnt even try to find out the price after that, lol the sales guy was acualy trying to tell me konis and motons were bad becouse they didnt have high compression (he brought up the names!)

I guess I got to bite the bullet and start pooling some funds together.

[Wiisass]

Large compression numbers aren't bad if they are in the right spot. I'm a fan of a stiffer low-speed section. Based on a lot of the numbers, having the same damping force for both rebound and compression in the low-speed range will work very well. This is assuming that both rebound and compression are below critical values.

It's the high speed compression that really hurts ride. Many shocks do still not use a digressive curve, so if they were to run the same damping coefficients in the high speed as they do in the low speed there will be too much transmissibility in for all the road disturbances which will just hurt handling. But if the curve is digressive and the damping ratio falls off as the shaft speed increases, the ride will be much better.

[veilside180sx]

My sentiments exactly. Too much compression during high speed upsets the chassis, somtimes violently, and their is no reason for it.


Large compression numbers aren't bad if they are in the right spot. I'm a fan of a stiffer low-speed section. Based on a lot of the numbers, having the same damping force for both rebound and compression in the low-speed range will work very well. This is assuming that both rebound and compression are below critical values.

It's the high speed compression that really hurts ride. Many shocks do still not use a digressive curve, so if they were to run the same damping coefficients in the high speed as they do in the low speed there will be too much transmissibility in for all the road disturbances which will just hurt handling. But if the curve is digressive and the damping ratio falls off as the shaft speed increases, the ride will be much better.

[Ineed2speed]

you know i recently stumbled on AST Suspension. I was told that they make Aragosta coilovers so I emailed AST USA about their coilover setups and asked about Aragosta coilovers. This was his response:

Jason,
Single adjustable is $1750. Top mounts are optional. Fronts are $385 Rears are $230. 3 way shocks come with top mounts. Doubles have not been created for the S14, but we can probably do them. Struts and shock doubles are usually around $2650. We can use whatever spring rates you want.

Topline is AST's dealer in Japan. They didn't want to use the AST name so he came up with Aragosta.

-Jason

[veilside180sx]

I spent quite a while with the AST guys at PRI. When we get further along i our testing for our research project...they'll be one of them.=)

[AceInHole]

AST has put out some nifty stuff. I'd probably give them a shot if I was upgrading to a 3-way monotube...

[kaje]

I had a long e-mail chain with brian at http://www.vorshlag.com (US distro) about the 3 way's. They are alot like the Motons with the valve design ( or high end Ohlins)

here is a bit from the e-mail

I can get you comparable info, We don't have a plot (Dyno) for them. Retail is $5,000 for the triples. The valve design is very similar to an Ohlins bleed bolt for the rebound adjustment and the needle style high and low speed compression adjustment most remote res, shocks have. The design we use is a digressive/digressive piston.

he did say the bottoms were modular, so thats a plus for us Z32 upright peaple.

but I will keep you guys updated with more information I find.