200whp NA Dyno

[240sxTTC]

Fired up the engine for the first time and got it on the dyno. I'm happy with the results considering it was with a crappy Ebay shorty header, only at 7k, and w/o really messing with the ignition or cam timing because it blew a collector gasket and the rear main is pissing oil.

I'm going to get a Tri-Y header and redo the exhaust as well as fix the oil leak. I should be able to get ~220whp at 7500rpm. :D

Keep in mind this motor is only 10:1 compression!


http://lh5.ggpht.com/_h6ilXigmGoE/TBvHO_VeD9I/AAAAAAAABH4/CuyNyewsoZ8/s800/Dyno_240sx_NA_Engine_206whp_17Jun10.jpg

[veilside180sx]

Which motor is this again?

[Def]

Looks like a KA from the torque. The power delivery is all over the place though. Obviously some strong resonance effects.

[KA240SX808]

Very nice. What's the mods on it?
And I gatta say those AFR's look pretty damn solid.

[Sleepy_Steve]

Yeah I'd like to see what intake manifold is on the motor. As well as hear about whatever else went into the engine in terms of valve train and head work.

[240sxTTC]

Some of the specs.

Engine:
10:1 CR
0.480" lift custom cams with JWT gears slightly slotted to adjust timing w/o removing the gear
VQ shimless buckets
Stock head with port matching only and stock size valves
Q45 90mm TB
Xcessive intake manifold
ATI crank damper
5.5" QM twin-disc clutch

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_h6ilXigmGoE/S04fniu602I/AAAAAAAABF4/Z-58rHaJF7w/s800/DSC00303.JPG

I didn't get a chance to mess with the ignition or cam timing because it blew a collector gasket and the rear main is leaking. Plus I know the crappy shorty header is hurting me. I had the header and exhaust from my stock engine and wanted to get it running and break it in. I'm getting a Tri-Y header and then I'll get it back on the dyno after I fix the oil leak. The slope of the graph is great from 6200 to 7k so I don't see a problem making 220whp. I'm not sure about the dips but my stock engine (blue line), which also had the crappy header, has a similar shape (3k and 4.5k??

BUILT ENGINE
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_h6ilXigmGoE/TBvHO_VeD9I/AAAAAAAABH4/CuyNyewsoZ8/s800/Dyno_240sx_NA_Engine_206whp_17Jun10.jpg

STOCK ENGINE
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_h6ilXigmGoE/TB7HVriU8dI/AAAAAAAABIA/U1EoZmrSp7M/s800/Dyno_240sx_NA_stock_Engine.JPG

[KA240SX808]

Port Matching and Stock Sized Valves. Makes me wonder why ppl think N/A is so hard if you just do some research and put on the right Combo of parts. How much would you say is the motor in parts alone?

Nice job.
+1 Sir

Also I'll throw in this bit of Header info from alittle bit of research I did:
Pacesetter Header
1.500" Primaries
2.500" Collector/Outlet
4-1

OBX Header
1.125" Primaries
2.500" Collector/Outlet
4-2-1

DC Sports Header
?.???" Primaries
1.875" Collector/Outlet
4-2-1

[240sxTTC]

I hate to think about it but I would guess about $3500 not included bearings and gaskets.

[KA240SX808]

To make 205whp, I don't think thats bad at all for a N/A build.
Not to be a douche or anything but didn't greaser spend like 6-7g's to make 210whp?

[240sxTTC]

To make 205whp, I don't think thats bad at all for a N/A build.
Not to be a douche or anything but didn't greaser spend like 6-7g's to make 210whp?

I'm not sure what the $6-$7K covers but my $3500 estimate was for pistons, rods, cams, VQ buckets, TB, intake manifold, ATI damper, and custom water pump and accessory pullies. There is more that goes into it and I definitely spent more than $3500.

[djsilver]

Port Matching and Stock Sized Valves. Makes me wonder why ppl think N/A is so hard if you just do some research and put on the right Combo of parts. How much would you say is the motor in parts alone?

Nice job.
+1 Sir

Also I'll throw in this bit of Header info from alittle bit of research I did:
Pacesetter Header
1.500" Primaries
2.500" Collector/Outlet
4-1

OBX Header
1.125" Primaries
2.500" Collector/Outlet
4-2-1

DC Sports Header
?.???" Primaries
1.875" Collector/Outlet
4-2-1

I have a DC Sports header in the shed and a Hotshot on the car. The DCSports runners are about 1.5" and the Hotshot is more like 1-5/8" primaries and 2" collectors. I've also read good things about S&S headers in Glendale, AZ. Their website is fairly unresponsive today but here it is;
http://www.ssheaders.com/

I've also followed the 3" catback craze on the various forums. I even bought a cheap one on Fleabay to test on the dyno and it made zero difference on my car compared to a 2.5" megan racing catback. I'm currently at about 168RWHP.

[240sxTTC]

I got a 4-2-1 ebay header on the way that supposedly has 1.75" primaries and a 2.25" collector outlet. I'm going to modify it for a 2.50" V-band outlet and keep my current 3" exhaust. I'll be adding an oval Dynomax Ultra Flo muffler to try and quiet this thing down. It's hear piercing at 7K with the side exit exhaust.

[orion]

I'm impressed, nice work!

- Brian

[KA240SX808]

I have a DC Sports header in the shed and a Hotshot on the car. The DCSports runners are about 1.5" and the Hotshot is more like 1-5/8" primaries and 2" collectors. I've also read good things about S&S headers in Glendale, AZ. Their website is fairly unresponsive today but here it is;
http://www.ssheaders.com/

I've also followed the 3" catback craze on the various forums. I even bought a cheap one on Fleabay to test on the dyno and it made zero difference on my car compared to a 2.5" megan racing catback. I'm currently at about 168RWHP.


Yeah I've read some of the S&S but never seen pics or Dyno results of it, nor specs of the runners and such.

Also not to beat a dead horse but it maybe the fact it was a Flebay Cat-Back. To make it more comparable I would get a 2.5" and 3.0" Version of the Same exhaust from the Same Flebay company to get more accurate results.
A good Dyno comparison I seen was on Zilvia and it was a 60mm (2.36") Exhaust vs a 80mm (3.15") Exhaust on the same 240 (IIRC it was a 14). Avg #'s were 136/146 for the 60mm and 144/145 for the 80mm. Not trying to start a debate just putting out some info.

[Sleepy_Steve]

If he's doing a side exit, how applicable are the 2.5'' vs 3'' discussions going to be anyway?



Also... What valve springs / retainers are you running? What are your valves made of if they're stock sized?

[PoorMans180SX]

Be prepared for crappy welds on that ebay header. All the collectors are smash-banged together and not very smooth.

I would gladly pay double for a DC sports one.

[240sxTTC]

If he's doing a side exit, how applicable are the 2.5'' vs 3'' discussions going to be anyway?



Also... What valve springs / retainers are you running? What are your valves made of if they're stock sized?

The exhaust size depends on the collector size regardless of exit location. A 3" exhaust should not be used with a 2.25" or smaller collector. You don't want the transition from the collector to exhaust to be too great because the air velocity decreases too much and hurts performance.

I'm using stock retainers and a single spring for a Honda application. I'm not sure the part number. I didn't source them.

[240sxTTC]

Be prepared for crappy welds on that ebay header. All the collectors are smash-banged together and not very smooth.

I would gladly pay double for a DC sports one.

I know but the DC Sports primaries and collector outlet are too small. Eventually I will make my own but right now I need something close to get the car running and not so damn loud.

[KA240SX808]

I was pretty surprised on the Mid-Range gain from the PaceSetter 4-1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v731/240-kid/KADynos.jpg

Run 2 = Stock KA w/ 88k Miles
Run 7 = Blitz Realize TT 80mm Exhaust (Downsizes to ~2.5" in Muffler)
Run 14 = Blitz TT + PaceSetter 4-1 Header
*Not my Dyno

[Def]

I think I can get out and run faster than some of these stock KA dynos would be. :D

[JRS]

Great job!
FYI- For my race car I called Burns Stainless and used their computer header design service. (I believe I spoke with Vince Roman) They have a form on the website you can complete with all the particulars about your engine. They will send you back a design detailing primary lengths and diameters and secondary lengths and diameters and exhaust pipe size. I also purchased some merge collectors from them. The hardest part was finding some one in my town to construct the header.
Also, Vince and I spoke about what I was looking for out of the header. Since this is a long stroke engine I went for mid-range torque. Looking back at the dyno charts, their header produced 9% more mid-range torque than the other two headers I owned. This on an engine that is already tuned to the gnats wing.

[cheeky14]

don't mind me asking, who's cams are you running; why did you go this route on cam choice (was there nothing out there that fit your goals)?

[240sxTTC]

Great job!
FYI- For my race car I called Burns Stainless and used their computer header design service. (I believe I spoke with Vince Roman) They have a form on the website you can complete with all the particulars about your engine. They will send you back a design detailing primary lengths and diameters and secondary lengths and diameters and exhaust pipe size. I also purchased some merge collectors from them. The hardest part was finding some one in my town to construct the header.
Also, Vince and I spoke about what I was looking for out of the header. Since this is a long stroke engine I went for mid-range torque. Looking back at the dyno charts, their header produced 9% more mid-range torque than the other two headers I owned. This on an engine that is already tuned to the gnats wing.

Thanks.

I'll probably go that route next year. Well over budget for this year and really want to drive the car at a few events before fall.

[240sxTTC]

don't mind me asking, who's cams are you running; why did you go this route on cam choice (was there nothing out there that fit your goals)?

Custom cams from Rebello. JWT is just releasing their high lift KA24DE cams so there wasn't anything when I was puting my engine together.

[JRS]

yes, the header ended up being some cash. I won't share the total, but suffice to say I did get exactly what I expected out of it. This can't be said for all the "racing parts" I have installed on my car. It might be a tad bit cheaper if you make it out of mild steel and have it ceramic coated. However, I think Burns probably only makes their merge collectors out of stainless, and you definitely want to purchase their collectors for your header. They also will tell you the optimum exhaust size. For my car (3 valve NA) it ended up being 2 3/8".

[AdamR]

To make 205whp, I don't think thats bad at all for a N/A build.
Not to be a douche or anything but didn't greaser spend like 6-7g's to make 210whp?

He's selling it all on ka-t.org right now.

[PoorMans180SX]

230whp.

And he has done a ton of R&D with different setups.

[nismofly]

Are you going to have exterior vids of this setup, or are you waiting until you've got all the exhaust sorted out?

[KA240SX808]

230whp.

And he has done a ton of R&D with different setups.

I he also posted on 240SXF, he took it apart I guess and is now selling it.
Last time I checked his build he was making some where in the region of like 215whp. Didn't see him hit 230+whp.

[240sxTTC]

Are you going to have exterior vids of this setup, or are you waiting until you've got all the exhaust sorted out?

You mean engine photos or driving videos? Regardless I'll have both. My next event is July 24th at Mid-OH. I'm going to shoot some on track video.

[240sxTTC]

I found the source of the rear main seal leak. There is a 1/4" dent on the seal surface of the crank. At first I thought it was a casting void but it had a raised edge from displaced material. The spring loaded portion of the seal sat on the edge of the dent enough to leak. I had to sand down the edge with a stone. I'm not sure how the engine builder could miss it. Anyways I intalled a repair sleeve and new rear main seal and everything looks good. I hate fixing other people's mistakes especially when they are so obvious and I paid good money to have it done correctly.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_h6ilXigmGoE/TDNAzrV7FvI/AAAAAAAABIc/9pM-_L5jqc4/s800/Crankshaft_Damage.JPG

[Matt93SE]

I hate it when stuff like that happens.
What's a repair sleeve? I have an idea what it is, but can you do that with the crank in the engine? do you need a 'custom-spec' rear main seal now? just curious how you'd fix that other than to fill w/ JB weld (or other metal) and machine it back down, or to machine down the end of the crank and press a sleeve over it.

[djsilver]

A repair sleeve is a thin metal band that you heat up and slip over the crank end for an interference fit. They're usually thin enough that it works with the stock seal. The DE motor has the seal in a removable aluminum housing on the back of the block. He's got it off in the picture so he can clean up the crank and install the sleeve.

[Def]

That sucks. I always wonder about things like that when you see cranks all askew on the floor on some of the "unorganized" machine shops.

[Jonty]

do you know what is causing the dip in the curve right up at the top of the range? To me fixing that is much more important than trying to boost your peak power figure further as that will be killing your acceleration even if it feels like you're getting a nice kick towards 7k.

The runner length seems good (if not ever so slightly long) if you're going for a 7-7.5k red line, but there is a really strange tuning effect going on somewhere. :confused:

[240sxTTC]

Exactly. The sleeve is 0.010" thick and is a slight press fit onto the shaft. It works with the stock rear main seal. I filled the dent with Loctite Quick Metal, which is an anerobic paste. When the sleeve, which I heated up at 200F for 10 minutes, is pressed on it wipes off the excess Loctite filling the hole. We'll see hopefully everything stays dry.

[240sxTTC]

do you know what is causing the dip in the curve right up at the top of the range? To me fixing that is much more important than trying to boost your peak power figure further as that will be killing your acceleration even if it feels like you're getting a nice kick towards 7k.

The runner length seems good (if not ever so slightly long) if you're going for a 7-7.5k red line, but there is a really strange tuning effect going on somewhere. :confused:

The drop off at the top was from the dyno operator starting to lift. I told him not to go over 7K. The dips are mostly caused by resonance effects from the shorty header. I had the same header on a completely stock engine and it had the same dips. Some of it I'm sure is the calibration but I didn't have a chance to work on the ignition table before the collector gasket blew out and the oil leak. Obviously the goal is to smooth out the curve but I also want to make another 25whp.

[Matt93SE]

Exactly. The sleeve is 0.010" thick and is a slight press fit onto the shaft. It works with the stock rear main seal. I filled the dent with Loctite Quick Metal, which is an anerobic paste. When the sleeve, which I heated up at 200F for 10 minutes, is pressed on it wipes off the excess Loctite filling the hole. We'll see hopefully everything stays dry.

Gotcha. Thanks. Never knew they made them that thin. The only ones I've seen were bearing replacement parts on my ATV, which was a 1/8" thick piece the guy machined out of the damaged axle housing and pressed a sleeve in to replace it. (axle bearing died and the race spun in the housing, damaging the housing.)

So where do you get these?
I've never needed one on the car and hope I never do, but it's good info to have.

[240sxTTC]

Speedi Sleeve and Micro Seal Sleeve.

[Jonty]

The drop off at the top was from the dyno operator starting to lift. I told him not to go over 7K. The dips are mostly caused by resonance effects from the shorty header. I had the same header on a completely stock engine and it had the same dips. Some of it I'm sure is the calibration but I didn't have a chance to work on the ignition table before the collector gasket blew out and the oil leak. Obviously the goal is to smooth out the curve but I also want to make another 25whp.

That's not great if the inlet manifold does that on all engines, seems a fairly major design flaw to me. Am I correct in thinking that's a characteristic of charge robbing between cylinders? If you can get the runners shortened with a cut 'n' shut and then individual trumpet bell mouths added then that'd maybe cure the issue... is it not worth prioritising sorting this over chasing 25whp, as I'd expect this trait to become more obvious than not if you start winding it up even harder?

Good work on finding that leak, it'll be cool to see what the engine can do on a full dyno pull. with your next bit of progress...we don't get KAs in the UK so it's interesting to see stuff on them from you USA based builders

Jonty

[240sxTTC]

I was referring to the exhaust header as the cause not the intake manifold.

[Jonty]

I was referring to the exhaust header as the cause not the intake manifold.

ah ok, bit of a simpler task then! ...good luck dude :)

[240sxTTC]

Did another round of dyno testing last wk with the new Tri-Y header and it performed well. The green line is with the shorty 4-1 header and the blue line is with the new Tri-Y. The Tri-Y definitely smoothed everything out and helped the torque in multiple locations even at a lower A/F ratio. I still didn’t get a chance to mess with the cam timing. It is currently set up for max torque so there is still some room to increase max hp if I need to. Not too bad for a 10:1 CR KA24DE motor at 7K.

It's weird seeing peak torque on a KA at 5.7K.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_h6ilXigmGoE/TESaz8izgKI/AAAAAAAABJA/G7i794NzvRA/s800/Dyno_240sx_Header_Comparison.jpg>

[KA240SX808]

Seems you can hold it a little longer also. Safe pistons speeds with the Stock 96mm Stroke is ~7300rpm (Though I'm pretty sure you knew that)

Very nice power band though. 204/173 are nice numbers for an N/A KA

[cdlong]

Safe pistons speeds with the Stock 96mm Stroke is ~7300rpm

i'm only asking here since you brought it up, what rpm is the head limited to?

i'm looking to up the rev limit on my s14 and don't want to blow anything up. this is just to avoid shifting out of second in autoX, not sustained power.

[KA240SX808]

Stock valvetrain can see 7300rpm with 10lbs of boost and BC 264's. So in a completely stock set-up it can probably see 7500rpm in an N/A app. But the stock cams will die out after 6250 FAST and make anything above that useless.

So if I'm cluttering the thread.

A slightly longer FD or taller tires would probably be a better solution IMO.

[cdlong]

well, the issue is i'm going with shorter tires and can't change the FD. need a higher rev limit to maintain the current top speed to keep from shifting in fast points in the course. i know power will be gone, but continuing in second at lower power is often faster than shifting to third momentarily and then shifting back, or bouncing off the rev limiter.

answered my question, thanks. i'll stop with the clutter also.

[240sxTTC]

Seems you can hold it a little longer also. Safe pistons speeds with the Stock 96mm Stroke is ~7300rpm (Though I'm pretty sure you knew that)

Very nice power band though. 204/173 are nice numbers for an N/A KA

They will rev higher but durability goes down. GT3 cars rev to 7.8K and get about 20hrs until they replace the bearings. The Corr trucks rev to 9.5K and replace the bearings after two races. I'm going to stay around 7K because the cam timing is set up for torque and after 7K the power starts to drop off.

[Matt93SE]

Switch to S13 248 cams and you'll make power to redline. I played around on the front straight at TWS, and shifting everywhere form 6000 to 6800rpm (stock ECU) I found I had better end-of-straight speed shifting at 6800rpm in 3rd and 4th. (below 110mph final speed shifting at 6000rpm and 120mph final speed shifting at 6800)...

It of course depends on your setup, but I've found witht he 248 cams and I,H,E, I get better top end than I do anywhere else.

[KA240SX808]

^I believe that's not "Technically legal though in Auto-X correct? Until you hit SM then it's fair game.

[cdlong]

not sure who matt was suggesting that to but you're right, swapping cams isn't legal in SP, ST, or stock. you can however update/backdate to an s13 engine in SP. since the intake manifold and ignition are free, the remainder is essentially the same. i'm currently researching if i can just drop in s13 cams (both, not two 248 exhaust cams) and calling the rest a wash. the only differences in the head and block that i'm aware of are the valve cover and front cover bolt patterns. certainly not worth swapping a whole new engine in for.

[cdlong]

to get back on topic, sort of, do you have any comments on the intake manifold specifically? i was considering that one, or something like this (http://www.ka-t.org/intake_manifold_basic.php). though i would add some taper. do you know how much power it added by itself?

[240sxTTC]

to get back on topic, sort of, do you have any comments on the intake manifold specifically? i was considering that one, or something like this (http://www.ka-t.org/intake_manifold_basic.php). though i would add some taper. do you know how much power it added by itself?

The intake manifold cleans up that side of the engine and makes it a ton easier to work on.

I don't know how much it's worth but it seems people with stock intake manifolds don't make over ~170whp. I plan to test a stock TB to see how much the 90mm TB is worth if any.

[V1A]

I plan to test a stock TB to see how much the 90mm TB is worth if any.

I'm interested to know this. I've seen it mentioned that it will make a difference (without data), but I've always been skeptical...

[240sxTTC]

I'm interested to know this. I've seen it mentioned that it will make a difference (without data), but I've always been skeptical...

My engine has stock size valves and no port work so it's just a matter of finding where the restrictions are. Below is my guess of the order of restriction.

1. Intake manifold
2. Head ports
3. TB

If this is true I should make roughly the same power with the stock TB. We'll see.

[CoupedUp]

It's weird seeing peak torque on a KA at 5.7K.

Not many KAs have ~9" plenum to valve lengths either.

Get a nice header made for it and get it to help out your peak VE and you should see some good results. It looks like the header and intake manifold are offset from one another as far as where their resonance occurs.

[nismofly]

You mean engine photos or driving videos? Regardless I'll have both. My next event is July 24th at Mid-OH. I'm going to shoot some on track video.

Up close idle / wot drive by on track type of stuff, Ive heard GT3 engines before and if this thing sounds pretty close then itll be awesome.

The first time I heard a GT3 KA I burst out laughing thinking about the fact that the engine in my car is capable of making that noise.

Did you make it to mid O?

[240sxTTC]

Up close idle / wot drive by on track type of stuff, Ive heard GT3 engines before and if this thing sounds pretty close then itll be awesome.

The first time I heard a GT3 KA I burst out laughing thinking about the fact that the engine in my car is capable of making that noise.

Did you make it to mid O?

I did make it to Mid-OH in July and was able to win TTC both days. Wholly crap it was hot on Saturday; 94F and 100% humidity. The track was slippery to say the least. The engine ran great but I was being somewhat easy on it since it was the first event. I'll be at the August event and will turn up the wick!

I sometimes use the GoPro but I'm not big on videos. Seems like I'm always spending time getting the car ready and run out of time to set the camera up. My friend did get a new Race Optics camera system and man it's nice. I may pick one up next year.

http://www.raceoptics.com/evohds.php

[nismofly]

Itd be awesome if you could make out it to the glen in october for the annual NASA weekend...

Id grab some shots of it and put something together for you too cause Ill be there spectating regardless.

[240sxTTC]

Itd be awesome if you could make out it to the glen in october for the annual NASA weekend...

Id grab some shots of it and put something together for you too cause Ill be there spectating regardless.

The Glen is on my list of tracks to drive on sooner than later. I'm having surgery at the end of August and I'm not sure how long all be out of commission for driving.

Once I can make it there I shoot you a PM.

[240sxTTC]

I haven't done this before........but the engine does sound good.

Here you go nismofly.

http://vimeo.com/13977757

[KA240SX808]

OMG that sounds so lovely. Can't wait to see some footage of it in action.

BTW: Love the "Garrett" Decal on the side :p j/k

[240sxTTC]

Yeah....the remnants of the turbo engine :(

[KA240SX808]

I'm assuming that didn't end well? I believe you were rockin a 2871R making in the realm of 300whp and somewhere around 350trq IIRC?

[DreamN]

Any chance of posting exactly what's been done to this motor? Saw the short spec list, but I figure much more has had to have been done to it.

I'd honestly love to one day replicate (or get as close to it as possible) this setup as an N/A KA build has been a goal of mine for quite some time.

[Jonty]

the car looks tidy as hell mate, good work!

Having an engine bay cleaned up like that is on my wish list; it's probably going to get done this winter as we'll fit a heated screen and remove the heater matrix and do a load of other stuff before painting... it's good to see an inspirational car, keeps the spirits up whilst mine is the bodyshop waiting to be worked on!

[Matt93SE]

I'm in for details as well. I'm particularly interested in the Rebello cam specs if you're willing to share more info on them. nobody makes a "huge" cam for these cars that's not a custom grind which adds ridiculous amounts of cost.

I was hoping to be able to swap an SR into mine, but SCCA just posted a bunch of proposed rule changes for next season and they reworded the engine swap line to USDM only engines. I may be relegated to building a KA now...

[Jonty]

if they are proposed regs now is the time to put in a notice of this; are imported cars not legal? as if they are then they are creating the situation that a US car with SR is not legal but UK/JDM import would be.

Details are what distinguish good cars from the common place efforts and seems to be where so many people fall over through either poor execution or bad taste!

[240sxTTC]

I'm assuming that didn't end well? I believe you were rockin a 2871R making in the realm of 300whp and somewhere around 350trq IIRC?

Nope. Many head gaskets and finally a cracked block. Correct....GT2871R w/ 0.86 turbine hsg. At 4K it made 310hp and 425ft-lbs at the wheel. Plus it made 310whp from 4k to 6.5k.

Sad to see it go but I think the NA engine will be fun and hopefully more reliable.

[240sxTTC]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm happy with the progress as I've worked my butt off to get it this far. Of course there are still odds and ends needing done; heat shield for the air filter, weight reduction, solid rear subframe bushings, etc.

Rebello keeps his cam specs close to his chest. And trust me....the cams were pricey. The good thing is I have talked to Clark at JWT and they just released similar cams (less expensive) for the KA24DE.

http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/customer_part_detail.asp?PartID=506

I have an event at Mid-OH this weekend and surgery the following wk. I'll try and list some specs as I'll have some down time during recovery.

[Matt93SE]

if they are proposed regs now is the time to put in a notice of this; are imported cars not legal? as if they are then they are creating the situation that a US car with SR is not legal but UK/JDM import would be.

Details are what distinguish good cars from the common place efforts and seems to be where so many people fall over through either poor execution or bad taste!

Only cars available in the US are allowed to race in SCCA. That came up on another board recently and someone said there is a line somewhere in the rulebook that states the cars must be available for sale in US.


As for the engine changes....

The 2009 rules stated: Alternate engines may be used, given that the manufacturer of the vehicle and engine are the same (e.g. Acura engine installed into a Honda auto).

The proposed 2010 rules change it to:Alternate engines may be used, if the manufacturer of the vehicle and engine are the same (e.g., an Acura engine installed into a Honda car) and was available in a car delivered in North America. The chosen engine must retain its original cylinder head and intake manifold. If an engine from a front wheel drive vehicle is installed in a rear wheel drive vehicle, alternate OEM intake manifolds may be considered.(emphasis mine)

This prohibits any sort of SR swap in the US since the FWD SR won't work in RWD due to the dizzy and other small differences.

I've written a letter to the board regarding the proposed changes. we'll see what happens in a month or three.

[Def]

The rule change sounds like crap to me. It's not like the average club racer is going to get some unobtanium engine that was only available overseas. It's mainly Japanese/German cars that had cheaper/less powerful engines offered here to bolster sales in their biggest market.

Engines from overseas aren't ridiculously expensive, and as long as you keep it "manufacturer specific" you won't get oddball swaps.

I say if there are limits on engine mods/restrictor size for a turbo car and you've got to use an OEM turbo, might as well let the engines be free. I really can't think of any "overdog" car that this would create really...

[Sleepy_Steve]

I've thought a lot about this in the past... and I can't for the life of me think of a good reason to charge people powertrain points in PT when everyone supposedly gets classed by power:weight ratios now.

I don't get it, maybe this is why I'm told to look at the letter of the rules and not their intent?

[Jonty]

maybe you could ask them what has triggered that change? It seems someone must have done something somewhere that gave them cause to eliminate this possibility?

For me a sensible wording would be “Alternate engines may be used, if the manufacturer of the vehicle and engine are the same (e.g., an Acura engine installed into a Honda car) and was available in a car delivered in North America, or was available in that vehicle elsewhere in the world”

It seems a bit odd that they would allow something wild like a C32 from the NSX to be put in the back of a civic, yet the SR20 which was supplied to the rest of the world as the stock engine in the S body isn’t allowed, despite being a straight swap... the request would be completely within the spirit of the rules, so hopefully they’ll be receptive to the idea.

[Def]

The only cars I could see it affecting would be cars like BMWs or early 90's Hondas that had engines of the same displacement offered overseas that are far and away better for limited prep than US engines(i.e. camshaft lift/CR/porting restrictions). Basically a B16A is going to blow away a D15/D16 in an EF Civic, or an S50B32 at 321 HP and 3.2L vs. a US-only S52B32 at 240 HP and 3.2L.

On the other side of the coin, I could see a lot of cars all of a sudden become competitive with the higher HP cars by letting FWD Nissans use SR VE's and stuff like that.

[nismofly]

I haven't done this before........but the engine does sound good.

Here you go nismofly.

http://vimeo.com/13977757

Bloody hell...I'm in love.

Much appreciated.

PS: you got new wheels I see...Im guessing you're not running 245/275+ anymore?

[nismofly]

Although going through the rules and adding up the points for what all I'm assuming you have and what I plan on doing I still can't get it to fit into TTC at max P:W...I have heard that a lot of cars aren't all that close to the max class limit though, and that it works out in the end.

[Matt93SE]

With STU class in SCCA, there are a TON of cars just there because they don't have another class to fit in. one too many mods for IT, but they're still running a stock engine and no aero. (like me). They're 10+sec off a World Challenge car- which is what the class is based off of- but I'll still finish in the top 3 in any of the races in the area because everyone else has cars like me too.

Just don't expect to take a car like that to Nationals and win. a national race is one thing. national championships you'll get ur butt kicked all the way home.

[240sxTTC]

Although going through the rules and adding up the points for what all I'm assuming you have and what I plan on doing I still can't get it to fit into TTC at max P:W...I have heard that a lot of cars aren't all that close to the max class limit though, and that it works out in the end.

I got my car re-classed for a base class of TTD and a competition weight of 2700lbs. The max whp for the re-class is 198. I pulled a few degrees of timing and once fully warmed up it makes 195-197. Then I have 39 points to use for suspension, LSD, 245 A6's, subframe bushings, rear wing and splitter. If I add up all my engine mods and go with straight points starting from a base class of TTF**, I'm 2 points shy of running the splitter (+3). However if I use straight points I can make 225whp. What's more important +2whp or the splitter? I've driven the car with the rear wing only and it pushed like a bus. But inorder to make ~220 I would need to run more timing, higher A/F ratio, build a custom header and most likely rev the engine higher. All reduces durability.

I have some boggie times, which I think would be competitive for 2011 Nationals at Mid-OH so I'm trying to set up the suspension to see what I can squeak out of it. Running R6's would give me +3 back but A6's are definitely 1-2 seconds faster and are ready to go on the first lap. It all a big game to figure out what mod is the best bang for the buck. And more hp isn't always the answer. We'll see.

[WorkInProgressK]

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_optimization.html you have a turbo now :P

[project-d]

what are you using to tune for your set up?

[KA240SX808]

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_optimization.html you have a turbo now :P


Haha, nice find.

[240sxTTC]

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_optimization.html you have a turbo now :P

I figured since I created the presentation I can put my car in it.:)

[240sxTTC]

what are you using to tune for your set up?

aem

[WorkInProgressK]

I figured since I created the presentation I can put my car in it.:)

wait what?

[240sxTTC]

I don't usually bring it up on forums.....but I'm an application engineer and design aftermarket turbos. I gave that presentation at SEMA two years ago.

[Matt93SE]

So uhh.. can you like get me a superduper discount or something? :hide:

too bad I can't go turbo anyway.. would be much easier to make power if I could do an SR swap.

[cdlong]

I don't usually bring it up on forums.....but I'm an application engineer and design aftermarket turbos. I gave that presentation at SEMA two years ago.

A bit ironic, ehh?

[240sxTTC]

So uhh.. can you like get me a superduper discount or something? :hide:

too bad I can't go turbo anyway.. would be much easier to make power if I could do an SR swap.

I wish. It's difficult for me to get a discount.

Turbos are great.....but when put on engines not orginally designed for boost problems usually occur as I found out. That's why I'm NA for now.

I think you would be happy with a built KA. This past weekend was the second event with it and I'm impressed. I'm shifting at a conservative 7200rpm and it pulls all the way to redline. I'm going to switch to a 5.143 final drive (currently 4.63) next year to increase engine speed coming out of a few corners. Looking at the data going from 4700 rpm to 5200 rpm in third at the same speed I will gain 20whp when I get back to full throttle.

[Sleepy_Steve]

Where do you find a 5.143 FD?

[240sxTTC]

Where do you find a 5.143 FD?

Nissan Motorsports catalog. Its used in the front diff of some trucks. You can also get a 4.90, which is stock in the front diff on the 02+ Xterra. The 4.90 should be easier to get.

[Matt93SE]

5.1? dayum!!
you must run on some short tracks!!
I'm running over 6400rpm in 5th at several tracks with my stock 4.1... I'll be going to a 4.3 soon and then later a dog box w/ custom gearing... but that's on the 1-2 year plan.

I was looking to do an SR swap on mine, but the proposed rule changes kill me on anything but a US-spec engine. So I'm stuck with a KA, VG, or VQ since they're the only RWD US-based engines that will fit in the class. Sicne min weight is based on displacement, I don't want to run a 3.0L engine. I'll have to go to like 3600lbs.
(refer to the PMs we conversed about a while back with the inlet restrictor that I never responded to :oops: )
anyway, it would be cheaper to build an SR to ~250whp than it would to build a KA to it, but that may no longer be a choice for me.

Oh... do you happen to know Mike Kent? He is/was a Maxima guy that worked for Garrett for a while and did some custom turbo stuff on his car. wonder if you guys maybe happened to run into each other. cool guy.

[240sxTTC]

5.1? dayum!!
you must run on some short tracks!!
I'm running over 6400rpm in 5th at several tracks with my stock 4.1... I'll be going to a 4.3 soon and then later a dog box w/ custom gearing... but that's on the 1-2 year plan.


Oh... do you happen to know Mike Kent? He is/was a Maxima guy that worked for Garrett for a while and did some custom turbo stuff on his car. wonder if you guys maybe happened to run into each other. cool guy.

Mid-OH is 2.2miles with a decent straight-away. What size tires do you run because at 6400rpm with a 4.1 gear and 245/40r17 tires you could do 150mph in fifth? I doubt a mostly stock KA will do 150mph even at Road America. I run 245/40R17 tires and rev the new engine to 7300. My current 4.63 gearing is capable of 151mph and 136mph with the 5.143. I'm setting my car up for Mid-OH since the Nationals will be back next year.

Did he work in Torrance, CA?

[Def]

But at what speed does your peak power occur? I wouldn't gear the car to go much beyond that in top gear really, as that's when you want max power vs. aero load. I see you have a peak right towards redline, but you are also down over 20 rwhp just 700 RPM shy of there due to resonance effects.

Just something to think about, as a 5.1 gear still sounds extreme to me. But maybe it does make sense with a 200 rwhp NA motor.

[240sxTTC]

The peak power is right at redline. Currently exiting the two slowest corners, which lead onto straight-aways, I'm at 4700rpm (135whp) with the 4.63 gear. With the 4.90 gear it would be at 5000rpm (145whp) and 5300rpm (160whp) with the 5.143 (~20% whp increase over the 4.63). The rpm at top speed (121mph) at Mid-OH is currently 5800rpm. It would be 6200rpm for the 4.90 and 6600rpm for the 5.143. I'm trying to shift my operating range to increase the area under the curve and operate at a overall higher whp. With 200whp there are no tracks I'm aware except maybe Road America that I may run out of gear in fifth, which would be 136mph with the 5.143 gear. What do ya think?

With my turbo motor I ran the 4.08 gear and was at 6200rpm in fifth at top speed (145mph) at Mid-OH. I also had a different strategy because I made 310whp from 4000rpm to 6800rpm but with decreasing torque. I wanted to keep the engine speed lower to utilize the torque so I short shifted. I tried the 4.36 gear with the turbo motor but I had to shift three more times per lap and was operating at a lower torque in fifth.

[Matt93SE]

Mid-OH is 2.2miles with a decent straight-away. What size tires do you run because at 6400rpm with a 4.1 gear and 245/40r17 tires you could do 150mph in fifth? I doubt a mostly stock KA will do 150mph even at Road America. I run 245/40R17 tires and rev the new engine to 7300. My current 4.63 gearing is capable of 151mph and 136mph with the 5.143. I'm setting my car up for Mid-OH since the Nationals will be back next year.

Did he work in Torrance, CA?

I think he did- Torrance sounds familiar.. It's probably been 5 years since I've talked to him though, so it's quite possible he's moved on.

I run 235/40/17
End of front straight at TWS is about 125-130mph for me.

If you ever run in TX, you'll definitely run out of gear with 200hp. JRS puts down a little over 200hp and has a 4.6 in his car.. He says he runs about 1/2 the front straight at redline in 5th gear at TX Motor Speedway (TMS)

I was incorrect on the 6400 in my car. I run about 57-5800, indicated ~130 on my speedo. That's on a 130k mile stock engine w/ bolt ons. probably about 140whp if I had to guess.
200whp puts you well over 150mph- JRS says he just about runs out of gear at TX world Speedway (TWS).

Those are the fastest two tracks around here, but TMS is considerably faster than the others. you come off the road course in the middle of the back stretch, then you go through nascar 3 and 4, down the front straight, into 1 and 2, then brake and turn off the infield. something like that anyway...
it's a 1.5 mile track and you can take it just about flat out all the way around.

[nismofly]

Well if you do make it to the glen you'll want to treat it about like RA, overall fast course and higher top speeds will be reached. Ive had people tell me to make sure I remove the speed limiter before I go because you can hit it with stock KA, and it's what ~125 ish mph iirc?

Too bad you couldn't rig together a quick change because with the variation of tracks in the NE and upper MW you wouldn't be over prepared having 5 ratios on hand.

[Def]

I think he did- Torrance sounds familiar.. It's probably been 5 years since I've talked to him though, so it's quite possible he's moved on.

I run 235/40/17
End of front straight at TWS is about 125-130mph for me.

If you ever run in TX, you'll definitely run out of gear with 200hp. JRS puts down a little over 200hp and has a 4.6 in his car.. He says he runs about 1/2 the front straight at redline in 5th gear at TX Motor Speedway (TMS)

I was incorrect on the 6400 in my car. I run about 57-5800, indicated ~130 on my speedo. That's on a 130k mile stock engine w/ bolt ons. probably about 140whp if I had to guess.
200whp puts you well over 150mph- JRS says he just about runs out of gear at TX world Speedway (TWS).

Those are the fastest two tracks around here, but TMS is considerably faster than the others. you come off the road course in the middle of the back stretch, then you go through nascar 3 and 4, down the front straight, into 1 and 2, then brake and turn off the infield. something like that anyway...
it's a 1.5 mile track and you can take it just about flat out all the way around.

Some guy said I was totally full of it when I said I was pushing about 6500-6600 RPM in 5th with a 4.08 stock gear and ~280 rwhp. If you get a good launch onto the front straight of TWS you're at the top of 3rd gear, then you've got forever to go through 4th and pull through 5th. It was a little too fast for the level of prep the car was in at the time... The stock speedo was against the dash a while before the start finish line! :eek:


As for tracks, I can think of TWS, Road Atlanta and probably VIR where you'd run out of gear with a 5.1. Road Atlanta is a 125-127 mph track with a bone stock E36 M3 with street tires(3200 lbs, 210 rwhp). Add some sticky tires to get a better launch and ~15 rwhp more and they'll do right around 130-135 mph into T10a. A 200 rwhp ~2500-2600 lb S13 would probably be right around there if a bit higher. TWS and VIR are both faster.

[240sxTTC]

Unlimited funds would be nice of course then I'd have 3 or 4 diffs with different gear ratios. The 4.90 may be a good compromise (not to mention 1/3 the cost). Top speed would be 145mph.

[Matt93SE]

Also remember you can always change gearing a bit with tires too.... Of course that's still $1000 a set, so you'd be cheaper off buying another diff and setting it up.

My eventual goal is to have a 4.1, 4.3, and maybe a 4.6 setup for the tracks around here. I've got 3 or 4 diffs laying around, but they're all 4.1. I just need to find me some ring gears and get a good deal on a couple diffs and I'll be good. I'm halfway tempted to just weld up one of my open 4.1 diffs and use it for the 4.1, then use the S15 for the shorter diffs so I have better traction on the shorter tracks.

[Def]

Unlimited funds would be nice of course then I'd have 3 or 4 diffs with different gear ratios. The 4.90 may be a good compromise (not to mention 1/3 the cost). Top speed would be 145mph.

I think the 4.90 would be a great compromise. The 5.1 isn't going to be THAT much faster coming out of corners than the 4.9 in reality, and the possibility of running out of gear on the straights would make me a bit nervous on any bigger track.

[Tower240sx]

hmmm...welded diff on a road course huh......

the thought never even crossed my mind,

[Def]

hmmm...welded diff on a road course huh......

the thought never even crossed my mind,

I could see how it'd work well on some corners like higher speed, large radius ones. But really tight ones I'd think the car would turn in like ass, and getting on the power would get you some mad dorifto action.

[Matt93SE]

We welded the diff on our LeMons 240Z and it did just fine on a pretty tight track. Lotsa people run welded diffs on the cheap. best solution? no. Better than an open diff, yup. :)

[CodyAce]

We welded the diff on our LeMons 240Z and it did just fine on a pretty tight track. Lotsa people run welded diffs on the cheap. best solution? no. Better than an open diff, yup. :)

Most certianly...I'd take a 'lincoln locker' anyday over a one tire fry machine!

[Matt93SE]

especially with the torque that sucker was putting out. I don't know what rear ratio the guy had in the car, but idling in 2nd gear was less than walking speed. We ran a 4 spd in it, and the car would spin the tires through 7000rpm in 4th. i think it was good for about 90mph or so before running out of gear.
We ran MSR houston almost all in 4th gear. I use 2,3,& 4 in my 240.

light car + torque + short gearing = fun!

[Tower240sx]

that sounds like my 4 on the floor malibu wagon....if it had any torque, once it gets a real motor it'll be silly currently you're in 4th gear by about 35 mph

[CodyAce]

that sounds like my 4 on the floor malibu wagon....if it had any torque, once it gets a real motor it'll be silly currently you're in 4th gear by about 35 mph

Gotta be a Muncie box hehe. I'll never forget my buddies old Firebird with a close ratio 4 speed...****in thing would scream everywhere, but man with big gears out back it would fly 10-70

[Tower240sx]

I wish it was, it's a saginaw... just has the pansy gears as it came with a 267 SBC and was expected to haul a family plus cargo...feel sorry for anyone that tried that trick

[murda-c]

What kind of gas are you running 240sxttc?

[240sxTTC]

What kind of gas are you running 240sxttc?

114 octane leaded fuel but next year I may try a 93/100 octane unleaded blend to increase horsepower. I'm only running 10:1 CR so I should pick up some power running a lower octane.

[WorkInProgressK]

Isn't it the same as bumping up the timing?

[KA240SX808]

Kind of but I'm sure the Blend is a lot cheaper than the 114.

[KA240SX808]

The intake manifold cleans up that side of the engine and makes it a ton easier to work on.

I don't know how much it's worth but it seems people with stock intake manifolds don't make over ~170whp. I plan to test a stock TB to see how much the 90mm TB is worth if any.

Any word on this yet?

[240sxTTC]

Any word on this yet?

The car is put away for the winter. Not till spring.

[Matt93SE]

Sucks for joo! there's a race next weekend for us. next one is in Jan.
one good thing about souf Tejas is year-round racing.... :)

[KA240SX808]

I see
+1 for no snow :)

[Sleepy_Steve]

Yeah but you don't have yearly down time to get the car sorted for next year... I don't see missing that as entirely good.

[KA240SX808]

I can make the down time whenever... ;)

[Matt93SE]

Yeah but you don't have yearly down time to get the car sorted for next year... I don't see missing that as entirely good.

There are enough races that I don't have to "miss" a race in order to get something done. For one, I have a spare engine in the garage. I'll build that. everything else (other than major body damage) is fixable in a weekend or so in the garage.. Plus races are usually 4-6-8 weeks apart. I have plenty of time between races to put my stuff together... assuming work doesn't get in the way.

A major engine swap or something (SR swap)is a different story and I'll probably need to be out a race or so.

Once I get my national license- have to do 4 more races, which I'll finish in Feb- then the national races are 2-3 months apart. I should have time to swap an SR in there and hopefully not miss a national race.
Then again I'm not going for points right now. I'm there to gain experience for the next year or three. After I get confident locally, I may make a run to go to Nats. but I'm not ready physically, mentally, or financially for that yet.

[nate1]

any updates?

[V1A]

I'm curious to know if you ever did the stock vs 90mm throttle body comparison.

[240sxTTC]

Haven't had a chance because the throttle is linkage is opposite on the stock TB compared to the Q45 and will require a different bracket and modification to the adapter. I have other fish to fry right now so not sure when I'll get to it.

[niceguy]

I realize this is a pretty much dedicated track car but any idea what it would make on straight 92/93 unleaded?
I wasn't sure what fuel the posted dynos represented...

thanks!

Jeremy

[Matt93SE]

IIRC, he runs 100 unleaded in the car.

[240sxTTC]

I use oxygenated 114 leaded fuel....smells great! The heating value is lower than 93 unleaded so if I could run the same timing it should make more power with the higher heating value fuel. But since I highly doubt I could run as aggressive timing as I do it may be a wash. I like to use the race fuel as an extra measure of insurance for the engine.

[nismofly]

Saw you on coverage for nasa nats TT sessions but they never did spotlights on anything lower than TTR/S/U so it was just as you conveniently went by the camera they were showing

[240sxTTC]

Yeah it was BS! Of our five Group G sessions on sat and sun they only covered the afternoon rain session on sat, which only three cars went out. We paid the same as the race groups and are equally part of the championships. They apologized and said it would be better next yr. We'll see.