Stance Coilover revalving?

[SoSideways]

Anyone here other than Veilside180sx have had experience with Stance coilovers?

So far, him and I agree that these coilovers have a decent rebound rate, just that the compression gets a bit outta hand in the "whoa there too much of that" category when the adjustment knobs are turned to get the rebound in the sweet spot.

I've heard that these coilovers can be taken to local bike shops to have them revalved, but honestly, I'd rather have someone experienced revalving them if at all possible.

I have not contacted Stance USA (aka the Touge Factory guys) to see what they have to say about them, but honestly, they might not be able to valve it the way I want, since I don't think they have a shock dyno.

So, anyone else have any inputs on these coilovers?

Oh, I have the Stance GR+ with the 9k/7k springs on.

[Def]

I agree with the rebound/compression analysis. Even my K-Sports can get a reasonable(if not digressive in the least) rebound rate for smooth tracks, but the compression amount at that point is WAY too much(high/mid speed mainly - low speed is pretty much not there on these dampers, like most the JDM stuffs with needle valve adjusters).


My take on it - the dorifo guys love Stance for some reason, so I'd sell 'em off and get a set of 86xx Konis.

I should have my 8611's up front here soon, so I'll post up comparisons to the few "nice dampers" I've been exposed to.

[SoSideways]

The reason why these coilovers work well for drifting is because if you have the compression high, it helps to transfer the loads from side to side as you shift the weight of the car from 1 side to the other, while the low to ok rebound rate helps to keep the wheels in a squatted motion to keep the power down.

It makes a lot of sense for drifting, but I have a feeling that a proper road race setup will be a lot more beneficial even for the drift guys.

I'm not going to lie, I got into drifting back in 2000, and I am still very much a fan of it. Never really had the financial means to do it, or the place to do it, but now in 2008 there actually is a place for me to do it in a safe environment, and I also have the financial means to pay for tires/entry fee, so I'm going to be doing that.

But.

I am also going to be getting into road racing (I've done 1 track day so far, with KYB GR-2 and some Tanabe springs, and really craptastic tires and brake fluid. Got the slowest times of the day cause of that, it was not cool, but still fun), so this car will very much be a dual purpose car.

I figured I'd try and see if there is a way to improve what I already have right now, and if not, so be it, I'll get rid of my Stance coilovers and get myself a set of Veilside180sx 8611 front setup, with Koni yellows in the rear. But I'd like to go that route as a "last ditch effort" type scenario.

[e1_griego]

I'm really happy with my stance coils, I have gr+ pros on my s13 (8/6)-- when I first installed them I didn't really play with the dampers, but recently fiddled with them and got them riding/driving a lot better. Of course, I know the koni setup is far better, but, I'm content for now and the duties my car sees don't really necessitate anything better.

That said, I'm not sure how much the TF guys can do with revalving, and unless they're providing dyno plots or something, I probably wouldn't bother--though I'd be curious to know the price and more details as I haven't looked into it myself.

Alex

[Def]

Well, if you're just doing HPDEs I wouldn't worry about your "times."

IMO - the crappy valved coilovers everybody seems to love outside of this forum make these cars "not fun" to drive fast. You're always worried you're going to hit a very small bump midcorner at 8-9/10ths and immediately lose it because the dampers don't control the tire at all.

Unless TF has the shims for you to get them revalved somewhere with a dyno, I think you're kind of SOL on getting them reshimmed/valved.

If you really want something better than what you have now(which really isn't that hard to do IMO) - then go ahead and start thinking about some 8610/8611 fronts, Yellow rears. I don't think it'll be too much more $$$ than what you have now, and you'll likely be pretty happy with them.

[turtl631]

Truth, I have Stance with the 8/6 springs and the car can be skittery at times. On surfaces where (well set up) RWD, low power cars can easily use the throttle to steer and generate smooth tail-out action, my car will take a set, then hit a bump and snap out on me, and it's annoying. It works okay when the track is really smooth, but that is seldom, and in the real world (Chicago streets, don't get me started) I can't even mess around with it really because all the irregularities make it so unpredictable at the limit.

[SoSideways]

Yeah I have mine pretty low on the damping adjustment right now, and it seems that there is not enough roll resistance, which is the rebound I think, but it's still kind of harsh over bumps.

I think some thicker sways will help, but honestly, if the compression and rebound rates were better matched, I wouldn't even need them.

[AceInHole]

I think a sway will help your car transition quicker, but in transition you'll still have sub-par performance.

With the cheap shocks, I wouldn't go into them more than messing with N2 pressure. If your shocks have a schrader valve, a bike/ motorcycle/ shock shop can adjust the pressure easily. It's not the best way of "tuning" shocks, but it's by far easier than rebuilding. The added benefit is you should gain more rebound damping than compression.

D2's UK site actually lists recommended pressure for their external res. shocks.
http://www.d2racingsport.co.uk/Pages/coilovers.asp

I bumped my fronts up to 220psi (probably low spec, actually, considering they were WELL used at the time). It seemed to help control the front a bit better. Ride quality was marginally better (uncalibrated ass dyno). I'm betting it's possible to go higher, but I didn't trust my seals to hold for much considering their age.

[SoSideways]

Here's a dyno plot I found for a set of S13 Stance coilovers.

http://www.tougefactory.com/blog/?p=25

They compared it to a set of DG-5, Apexi, D-Max, and some other coil that I didn't really look at.

Look at the compression curve for the DG-5 (yellow) between 0-0.1m/sec. That looks pretty sweet for bumps in the road!

[Def]

none of those look that good to me. Especially the DG5 dampers. Way too much high speed, not enough low speed. The racing trial ones look the best.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

Does anyone by chance have a graph of a Koni 86XX shock, then we can overlay it and it would be a good reference for people who know nothing about them.

[a_ahmed]

http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/pics/coilovers/shock-dyno-1200.jpg

[SoSideways]

Actually, even the Racing Gear stuff is way too stiff.

The Apex's compression and rebound looks to be the closest to the 8611's valving.

[Wiisass]

All of those look like crap. I don't know why it was said that the DG5 compression curve looks good between 0-0.1m/s. But Racing gear does get a little stiff in rebound at over 500lbs force at about 2in/s, I would call that a little excessive.

Compression and rebound are totally unbalanced. Whatever, just crap. Rebound is way overdamped, like damping ratios around 2. Compression is underdamped around 0.3-0.6 depending on which one. Just from some quick analysis.

[SoSideways]

All of those look like crap. I don't know why it was said that the DG5 compression curve looks good between 0-0.1m/s. But Racing gear does get a little stiff in rebound at over 500lbs force at about 2in/s, I would call that a little excessive.

Compression and rebound are totally unbalanced. Whatever, just crap. Rebound is way overdamped, like damping ratios around 2. Compression is underdamped around 0.3-0.6 depending on which one. Just from some quick analysis.

Don't mind me.

I'm still a noob at reading shock dynos, and I just thought that if you had too much compression at low speed, like betwee 0-0.1m/s, then soaking up bumps on the road surfaces at cruising speeds would be much more tolerable.

Again, I'm still a noob and still learning this stuff.

I'm guessing using the graph for the 8611 as a benchmark for now would be a good idea?

[WishIHadaSilvia]

So a question I have floating around in my head is then...if revalving were offered by a company could you give them the chart for the konis and have them make the shocks preform like that?

[a_ahmed]

Heh I still dont quite understand damper dynos :shy... would be cool to have a "damper dynos for idiots" guide for me lol

[Wiisass]

Try these, I hear they're pretty good.

http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/drift_mag/basic_damper.pdf

http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/drift_mag/Damper_tuning.pdf

Tim

[turtl631]

Ha, that sucks that Stance posted that to promote their own product. I guess in the company of even worse dampers they don't look as terrible as they are, but it's still a move guaranteed to turn away an educated buyer.

[spool_sample]

Those DG-5s are easily the most overpriced, overhyped pieces of garbage I've ever seen. They look awesome and the build quality looks really good, but beauty is only skin deep, it seems.

I thought the most hilarious part of those was the dip at the slow end of the rebound range. WTF is that about? :confused: I didn't think that the mad tyte JDM DG-5s would truly be worse than budget-built Taiwanese Stances, but they sure do look like it.

Funny how all the fanboys on Zilvia are nutting over them, although it's not surprising.

[SoSideways]

You guys can hate on the Stances as much as you want, but they are still better than the D2/Ksport and Megans.

Really sucks for Dousan that he spent the money on those overpriced coilovers, but eh... Koni isn't JDM enough for that crowd I guess.

Only way for Zilvia to start seeing the light, is if someone with the Koni 8610/8611 setup shows up for a drift event and let all those JDM nutriders get a ride in the car, then it should be gravy.

Oh, and what's with the extreme nutriding over Swift springs? What makes them so much better than something like Eibach?

[spool_sample]

I don't mind Stance that much, actually. The cars I've ridden in or drove with Stances on them were no better or worse than any car I've ridden in or drove with Tein/JIC/Zeal/whatever for much less money. GR+ Pros are usually fine for most peoples' street cars.

Really, the only way that people are going to start liking Konis/Bilsteins/anything with merit is if they a) start making bolt-on solutions with dual-height adjustability for "teh supar lowness" and b) monopolize D1GP like DG-5 does. Like that dude in the Zilvia thread said, it's all politics, and that leads to hype. But whatever, to each his own. If that's what makes people happy, more power to them.

Swift is a JDM company, so of course there will be sackriding. They are supposed to be lighter and stronger than Eibachs, but they are 3x the price of Eibachs, and unless they are substantially lighter, I don't see the point. Hypercoil FTW in any case. :p

[rockdrummer027]

Could someone that knows something about shock dynos analyze this one for me. I know nothing about reading them. I was originally deciding between these SPL KTS Coilovers, and the stances but after reading more and more about the Konis, I might go that route. I would still like to know if these are any good because they cost significantly less than even the Koni 8610 setup.
http://splparts.com/main4/parts/Universal/Suspension/Coilovers/KTSShockDynoRearZ32.jpg

[Wiisass]

In short, crap.

Get konis.

Even yellows with decent springs are better than those.

[Def]

So Wiisass, what's your take on the 8611 dyno posted earlier? How's it rate in the company of other $250ish/ea struts?

[Wiisass]

The 8611 is the best adjustable strut insert for the money. From numbers I ran a while ago, you can get within the desired damping range for both rebound and compression. The compression curve isn't as digressive as I would like it to be. And it's not a high pressure shock. But it's hard to beat it for the money. I just wish I had some real dyno plots for the 8611/8610 and not that PVP crap.

[Epstein]

I just wish I had some real dyno plots for the 8611/8610 and not that PVP crap.

This was in the msprotege link that I posted in the General forum under Koni links. It's supposed to be an 8611-1257 and 8611-1259 on max and min. This is a CVP plot, right?

If you need better data, we at least know who has it now.

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Jeff@Tri-Point/dynographs.jpg

[veilside180sx]

Those dyno's were done by Jeff Wong at Pro Parts. He did revalve his later though, to fit what he desired for his Protege.

[Wiisass]

That's a CVP plot, but it's a force-displacement CVP plot. Which is hard to know what you're looking at without more info. You can get some good info from these plots, but you need to know peak speeds to get the most out of it.

So if he has those, then he'll have a force-velocity CVP plot, maybe someone can get him to post that.

[AceInHole]

[QUOTE=SoSideways;2260]You guys can hate on the Stances as much as you want, but they are still better than the D2/Ksport and Megans.[quote]
The Stance plots looked surprisingly similar to the D2 plots posted on HT a long ass time ago. It's most likely the same valving with a different gas pressure, but that's just an assumption unless you can get them both on the same dyno under the same conditions. Overall, it doesn't seem like you get any real (measureable) difference in quality going from one "JDM" brand to another.




Most drifters seem to LIKE the higher high velocity damping. My guess is it's good for losing traction, which results in sliding, which results in drifting. I'd imagine most of them would prefer a solid suspension (go-kart style!) over anything that would work well on a roadcourse. Besides that, the bigger deal for them is handling the abuse of stressing things from new and awkward angles while drifting.

[Wiisass]

It's not that most drifters like it, it's that they don't know any better. And good for losing traction does not mean good for drifting. What it comes down to, is people don't know how dampers should work or what they would want and they've been brainwashed to say think that a harsh damper is good for higher performance stuff.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

So a question I have floating around in my head is then...if revalving were offered by a company could you give them the chart for the konis and have them make the shocks preform like that?

No one knows? Haha, I fly from California back to VA and get lost in this 3 page conversation.

[SoSideways]

I guess it depends on who revalves your shocks, and what kind of shims/technique they use. If they have a shock dyno there and can test their shim stacks and what not, I guess it would be plausible for them to get it close to the Konis.

[veilside180sx]

The piston design will also play a large role in that, it's not just the shim stacks.

[SoSideways]

Hmm, thought the piston was just a piston w/ a seal at the end... didn't know it had different designs...

Or do you mean like, piston size?

[WishIHadaSilvia]

I think he means monotube vs inverted monotube vs twin tube.

[SoSideways]

That's more like a shock design, not a piston design, I would think...?

[Wiisass]

I guess you guys didn't read the articles I posted on page 2?

Damper pistons allow flow through them and they are one of the most important parts of damper design. Without a good piston, it will be hard to get a good curve.

http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/308-1/DSC00263.JPG
This is a Bilstein piston and shim stack that I use in my TIP Supra Motorsports setup. This is a very good piston. It's the same on both sides allowing me to fine tune magnitudes with the shim stack and get the curve how I want it. It's a double digressive piston.

http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/992-1/DSC00370.JPG
This is a cheap piston and shim stack. No design in the stack, no design in the piston. Just 2 sets of different sized holes to bias the amount of damping force depending on direction of the damper. This is from a Silkroad front strut from an S13 or S14.

These are just 2 examples, there are a lot of other piston designs. Although, I wouldn't expect much difference from what was in the silkroad to make its way into many of the different asian dampers. But I guess it could still be possible. Penske has some good info on their different piston designs. And you should be able to find more info about piston design on some other companies websites as well.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

I haven't read them yet because I was at work and couldn't open them...I am getting to reading now :o.