View Full Version : Bilstein Rod End Rear Shocks
I am wanting to go with rod end race shocks for the rear but don't have an idea on valving. The shops I have talked to aren't much better off. I am thinking a 3/30 rebound and a 5/50 compression with 300-440# springs.
Anybody have ideas if I am in the ball park?
I have had Koni's die 4 times in the last 2 years so I am not going that route if I can help it. They die differently each time. Right now I have one that won't hardly move.
Autox/track/don't care about the street or comfort
What shocks are you going to use?
Just talked to Bilstein. I am giving them all my info and they will come up with the valving. Going with rod end shocks on the rear and 3000gt for the fronts with Richard's housings. Not cheap or adjustable but one less thing for me to fiddle with.
Pat at Bilstein seemed very willing to help. Sending my specs to Germany for the valving. Hope this works.
Ruff Ryder 6
05-04-2010, 10:59 AM
Please keep us posted, i run 3kgt fronts and Z32 rears at the moment and would switch the rears for a properly valved setup as well.
I am also not so much a koni fan, and not so big on having knobs for adjustments when i don't know what i'm doing with them in the first place. My driving isn't consistent enough to know that a knob's turn is what made the difference in my times.
Matt93SE
05-04-2010, 12:38 PM
My driving isn't consistent enough to know that a knob's turn is what made the difference in my times.
Seat time can fix that.
I notice a difference in handling when I fiddle with mine, but it's not enough to the point where I really KNOW what I'm doing. I'll turn them a few clicks one way or another and go drive and see if I like it any better.
I have found that adjusting them for bumpy/smooth tracks has really helped lap times, but yeah.. I'm still +- 0.5sec/lap over 10 laps. there's the occaisonal "OOPS!" every 10 laps or so where I completely blow a corner, but that's the main thing I'm trying to rid myself of-- consistency..
Nonetheless, I have found that I can help/hurt the car by turning knobs and I have a few rough settings I use for different tracks, but I can't fine-tune the things 1 click at a time or anything.
Ruff Ryder 6
05-04-2010, 01:17 PM
I'm working on the seat time currently, and i figure when/if i get to that point i'll try that sort of thing out. One of my buddies says the same things about his adjustable koni's. He has changed his settings a few times based on conditions and has said that he thought it helped (auto-x so the course is always different).
stewiefied
05-04-2010, 01:39 PM
The thing with adjustable shocks are that they are very inconsistent. If you turn it 2 clicks, then back two clicks, It is nowhere near the setting you originally had. If you get the shocks valved correctly, you shouldn't need adjustable shocks. Purpose built race cars usually have non adjustables. The downside for us is that we can't revalve our shocks for each and every situation, or have spare sets to change the handling.
Matt93SE
05-04-2010, 02:32 PM
The thing with adjustable shocks are that they are very inconsistent. If you turn it 2 clicks, then back two clicks, It is nowhere near the setting you originally had. If you get the shocks valved correctly, you shouldn't need adjustable shocks. Purpose built race cars usually have non adjustables. The downside for us is that we can't revalve our shocks for each and every situation, or have spare sets to change the handling.
That's if you have crap shocks. :)
Assuming the machined parts are done properly, the shocks should be consistent with each click/position.
Also note that purpose built race cars have a huge box of different spring rates and lengths to go with different track types and setups.
Yet many of them still run adjustables as some point.
a lot of them will run an adjustable on test days and whatnot until they find what works, then they'll measure damping rates (notice how many of those badass trailers have shock dynos in them!) and valve a set of shocks to fit the springs and damping rates they like best on track.
Adjustables are also great for those of us that don't have 1- sets of shocks. we may wind up buying several sets of springs and then use the same adjustable shocks to make up the difference.
(I'm considering buying a longer, softer set of springs for the bumpy tracks currently. Last time I ran at Harris Hill, I bounced off the track twice with my 8k/6k setup!)
How much does a set of Bilsteins like that cost with rod ends?
125.00 valved anyway you want. Bilstein doesn't charge for coming up with the valving. There is never a wait either. Koni is currently back 4 weeks for the 86's, where I buy them.
I will be buying the Bilsteins from Mark Voight Racing (618-887-4706) since he was so helpful in getting me what I needed and who I needed to talk to. He is a dirt track guy but has a shock rebuild shop. Can't buy directly from Bilstein but they can tell him what to build and it's here within a couple of days.
125.00 valved anyway you want.
Per shock right? No way that's the price per pair...
What are your plans for the tophat? These have rod ends on both ends, right? I guess you're using the s13 uprights too?
Per shock. Coilover kit is 25-40 depending on what you want. Rod ends on both ends. Summit sells different, ready made tops, for this type of shock. Just need to weld it to something that bolts where you want it. I have made an extension on my stock top hat to give more room for bump on Koni yellows, or any other stock type shock. I will take a pic when I get it out. It is easy.
I am using Z32 uprights and there are many ways to fix that end. One way is from Summitt again. They sell a bolt just for this. Weld or press a plug in the shock mount and drill a 1/2" hole in it for this double sided bolt. One side is a long bolt and the other has a pin to hold the shock on. I have another idea too. I will try it and show you if it works.
There are easier ways to do it, and I'd definitely not want a single shear mount on one end of a shock. That'll definitely cause wear or bend it over time. If I'm understanding your description...
Matt93SE
05-05-2010, 09:32 PM
.... you mean like the OEM rear shock? :cool:
It's only OEM if you're using the s13/14 uprights, which is why I asked. If you put a steel bolt/adapter in the z32 aluminum upright to accept the rod end of the shock, I would think the upright would be subject to stress it wasn't designed to see.
It seems like the best way to do it would involve mounting a clevis above the shock mount hole of the upright. But, that would raise the ride height considerably...
Matt93SE
05-06-2010, 06:58 AM
The rear shocks are about 17 miles long anyway, and he's using a pretty short shock, so much of the rear assy would be spacer anyway.
That is not my first choice either but that is what the bolt is sold for and remember it is 1/2". That is pretty big. One idea is to cut most of the stock mount off and weld a plate on both sides of the part that is left. It would go high enough to put the shock in the same spot as original. Drill a hole through both plates and you have a solid mount at little expense.
It would be even easier to do the above by cutting out the top portion of the mount and drilling the original mount. The bolt would then screw into to upright itself, after tapping the hole. The thing with this method is that it changes the direction of the rod end so that it would be 180 degrees off. Don't know if it is designed to work that way.
jmauld
05-06-2010, 07:17 AM
It's only OEM if you're using the s13/14 uprights, which is why I asked. If you put a steel bolt/adapter in the z32 aluminum upright to accept the rod end of the shock, I would think the upright would be subject to stress it wasn't designed to see.
It seems like the best way to do it would involve mounting a clevis above the shock mount hole of the upright. But, that would raise the ride height considerably...
Due to the length of the S14 shocks, this shouldn't be an issue. I don't know if the same is true for the S13.
I would consider this option just to keep the shock working at the same angle.
The rear shocks are about 17 miles long anyway...
Good point. I forgot about that. This is especially true for the s14.
It would be even easier to do the above by cutting out the top portion of the mount and drilling the original mount. The bolt would then screw into to upright itself, after tapping the hole. The thing with this method is that it changes the direction of the rod end so that it would be 180 degrees off. Don't know if it is designed to work that way.
I'm not following. Are you talking about cutting the original z32 shock mount off entirely, and then tapping the upright in that location?
I would consider this option just to keep the shock working at the same angle.
The angle is fine on the s13, but isn't it a little off for the s14? I remember seeing PJ's pics which showed how the clevis of the 8611 housings were really tweaking the shock mount bushing:
http://nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=425
If I was going to do this for an s14, I would try to account for the difference in shock angle.
stewiefied
05-06-2010, 12:10 PM
I would copy someone that has already conquered this problem. Now if only there was someone here that just installed rod end race shocks on his S-chassis...
...oh yeah :)
http://full-race.com/prototype/R14/update5/MOTON_rear_adjuster.jpg
Looks like a strong way to mount them. The shock body will be attached to the chassis in my case. I am using Z32 uprights.
My specs are in Germany. They think they will have valving by early next week and then building the shocks should only be a few days.
stewiefied
05-06-2010, 02:03 PM
Looks like a strong way to mount them. The shock body will be attached to the chassis in my case. I am using Z32 uprights.
not sure i understand what you mean by that. How is the body going to be mounted to the chassis? If you mean the shocks will be inverted, that's how it is in that picture, it's the full race r14 with motons. Those are z32's also. He has a thread specifically on how he modified the uprights.
Here: http://nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=1717
another pic of the upright shock mount
http://full-race.com/prototype/R14/update4/shockmt-lower.jpg
I totally missed that thread somehow. Looks like all of the posts were made when I was in tahoe/mammoth lakes...
But, yeah, that's a great way to do it haha.
There are other ways of attaching rod end shocks to the rear of an S chassis.
Yes, I meant the shock will be inverted. I like what he did but I have something a bit different in mind. I also like the lowered toe mount, might do that while I am there.
I'd be careful with moving the toe arm around without careful analysis. Geoff mentioned he scrapped that setup because the bumpsteer was very bad.
I think you are right. I read the thread afterwards. He also said it was obvious why the bumpsteer was bad but I didn't see it. Wonder if he is using the ABS? I can see the 4 channel wheels.
Not sure. I sure would like me some 4 channel ABS when trying to trail brake into tight corners.
I have wondered about that but my 3 channel works so well that I haven't seen the need to change.
Are there any 4 channel diffs that bolt right into an S13? A Z32 turbo has the 4 channel but that is an R230 I believe. It is huge and heavy but will it bolt right in? If it will that would be an easy way to get 4 channel with a Z32 puter, if the front S13 is compatable with the Z32 puter.
SoSideways
05-07-2010, 10:14 AM
You can bolt it in, but you'd need the turbo Z32 hubs, and I think a Q45 axle and 1 Z32 axle.
There was a write up on how to put the R230 into the S-chassis on Fresh Alloy.
I have wondered about that but my 3 channel works so well that I haven't seen the need to change.
Are there any 4 channel diffs that bolt right into an S13? A Z32 turbo has the 4 channel but that is an R230 I believe. It is huge and heavy but will it bolt right in? If it will that would be an easy way to get 4 channel with a Z32 puter, if the front S13 is compatable with the Z32 puter.
Plenty of 2 bolt diff covers have the mounting bosses for wheel speed sensors, and the rings are on the output shafts IIRC. I think my J30 diff cover has bosses for 2 speed sensors, and I'm pretty sure the NA Z32 covers have the same rings, but it's been many years since I've seen one in person so I could be wrong on that.
Don't think you'd have to change the diff case.
Have valving. Mark is building the rears and sending them ASAP. Going with 7" stroke, 20" extended, 13" body, linear valving. Stock body is over 14" so that should give me room for lowering quite a bit. Since I am mounting them inverted, I can stick the body of the shock up through the mounting hole if need be but don't think it will be necessary.
Believe I can make it in the middle of the stroke at ride height. Coilover kit is 35 bucks. Also, since they are inverted the spring can't come off it's seat when jacking up the car.
My blown warranty Koni's are being shipped from Holland and should have them in 2 weeks or so. Sent in the warranty over a week ago.
Matt93SE
05-12-2010, 03:41 PM
Z32NA subframe in the back of those photo (S14 in front)
http://blehmco.com/pics/240SX/suspension/100_0912.jpg
You can see the dual sensors on it, but you have the 5 lug stubs to deal with.
the J30 diffs with 6-lug stubs have a 3 channel system with the sensor on the snout.
Not sure how much that helps, but it's what I've got in the garage.
Think you could knock off the rings and put them on other output shafts?
According to Bilstein, the 3000gt inserts need to be revalved.
Also found out it is Bilstein pronounced with an I, not e. I have been saying it wrong according to Bilstein and they should know.
SoSideways
05-13-2010, 09:01 AM
Just curious, but why linear valving?
Matt93SE
05-13-2010, 09:42 AM
According to Bilstein, the 3000gt inserts need to be revalved.
Also found out it is Bilstein pronounced with an I, not e. I have been saying it wrong according to Bilstein and they should know.
Heh.. yeah.. found that out a few weeks ago when I bought a set of OE type Bilsteins for my truck.. called up Shox.com and "I need some bilsteens for my truck.."
reply "We have Bilstines in stock, but no bilsteens. You want them?"
hahah
turtl631
05-13-2010, 09:48 AM
Hah, cheeky.
4 channel ABS sounds good, could be a worthwhile project. Let's take all we can from those fatty Zs. I'm actually surprised there aren't more on here. L
kuah still running his?
Matt93SE
05-13-2010, 10:38 AM
Last time I saw him, he was... that was a few months ago though.
I think Sean Farrah and his host of Zs have taken over the badass crazy stuff though and Kuah is just playing. (well I'm sure it's more than that, but he's not doing the time attack stuff anymore I don't think.)
djsilver
05-13-2010, 06:59 PM
Think you could knock off the rings and put them on other output shafts?
I bought an S15 Helical recently and the stub axles are obviously machined to fit rings but they were none installed. If you drill down in the OEM parts section of Courtesy parts for the Z32 under brakes/anti-lock you'll find the rings, sensors brackets, etc.
http://www.courtesyparts.com/300zx-parts-z32-1990-1996/genuine-nissan-parts/brake/476-anti-skid-control/-c-882_883_982_990.html
The S14 stubs were machined to 72mm but I don't know about the Z32 parts. The parts in the picture are listed for the NA model but I don't remember if the NA version had an R200 or R230 diff and whether the output stubs were machined to the same diameter.
Matt93SE
05-13-2010, 08:40 PM
NA Z32 = R200.
I can measure the output shafts probably sat night or sun morning. headed to the track at 0600 tomorrow and I'm BEAT.
MSR-C? I got wait listed, so I'm not able to go. Bleh
Just curious, but why linear valving?
I've been gone. Not sure about linear but the other place I talked to about building them also said linear. From what I have found out, which isn't much, digressive is more for big bumps and dirt. Linear is for pavement but I don't know much about it.
veilside180sx
05-17-2010, 08:26 PM
I've been gone. Not sure about linear but the other place I talked to about building them also said linear. From what I have found out, which isn't much, digressive is more for big bumps and dirt. Linear is for pavement but I don't know much about it.
I'm very intrigued that they stuck with linear for auto-x, I would've definately gone with a digressive piston.
SoSideways
05-18-2010, 07:33 AM
That's kind of why I asked.
BTW, what all did you have to tell the folks at Bilstein to get your valving Mr. Logr?
I'd love to get into a set of 3000GT fronts and Z32 rears, but I'd have to tell Bilstein to valve them for my car.
I'm assuming the weight of the car and spring rates you plan on running?
Just logr will do. I'm not that old. OK I am but everybody calls me logr. I don't even go by Mike anymore.
They wanted everything I could think of or knew.
I gave;
spring rate
car weight
bar size
motion ratio
intended usage
tire
type of suspension
stroke
length's
hp
think that's all
I would have suggested digressive as well but will go with their recomendation for now. The rears should be here tomorrow. The fronts are on order.
Got the adjustable arms on, bearings installed and Bilsteins mounted. No pics yet but for the bottom mount I cut the top off the original shock mount and welded a 1/4" plate on each side of the mount with a hole in the center top for the rod end.
There is not enough room to mount the shocks upside down. The springs hit the axle. There is barely enough room either way with the longer traction rod.
Moving the lower shock mount inboard 1/4" from center would help. My Battle Version UCA is in the way.
I used original plates at the top and welded some Coleman Racing race shock mounts to them. The shocks are only 20" total length but the shock body is shorter than stock. For a normal ride height you would want 9" sleeves on the shock.
More later. I can do pics and a better write up if anybody is interested.
jmauld
05-21-2010, 07:12 AM
More later. I can do pics and a better write up if anybody is interested.
Please do. Also, did you get a plot of your shocks from Bilstein?
SoSideways
05-21-2010, 07:13 AM
So why must the rears be mounted upside down anyway?
Like, was there a reason why you couldn't mount it the normal way with the springs up top?
Sorry if you've posted about that earlier in the thread lol
It is the better way to reduce unsprung weight.
Please do. Also, did you get a plot of your shocks from Bilstein?
No but I'm sure I can get the build specs. Not sure about the plot but I will find out.
SoSideways
05-21-2010, 07:50 AM
Hmm... I guess I have to see pics and stuff to see why there will be reduced unsprung weight...
Can't wait for the pics!
Because you're not moving the whole damper body with the wheel, only the shaft. Shaft is much smaller than the damper body, and lighter.
SoSideways
05-21-2010, 01:22 PM
Ok, I can dig that.
I can see why the packaging would prevent you from mounting it upside down without modifying something.
Ran them today. They are stiffer which made the rear loose since I don't have the fronts yet. I went to full stiff with the front Koni's and removed the rear sway. It worked much better. Still didn't beat 1 Z06 but was close. Don't think it is my car that is getting beat anyway. 3rd in raw by .5 sec. Dang Z06 and sooped up 2010 STI. Won't have to worry about the STI tomorrow. It blew 3rd today.
Ruff Ryder 6
05-24-2010, 01:18 PM
According to Bilstein, the 3000gt inserts need to be revalved.
At what spring rates? Or just for our applications period?
Matt93SE
05-24-2010, 01:48 PM
I would think they'd need revalved for our application, period.
Base 3000GT weighs 3100lb, VR-4 weighs 3800lb. I don't know about motion ratios and whatnot on the 3000gt, but I would suspect that the valving for a 3100 or 3800lb car will be vastly different than in a 2500lb car.
Or for a 2300# car. Specs I gave Bilstein was for 550# fronts and 440# rears on a 2550# car including driver with a 53% front split. I am actually under that a bit.
I sure like that I don't have to worry about the springs coming off their seats. I ordered a bit softer rear springs in a 10". The spring sleeves are 7" long but start near the bottom of the shock so a longer spring is better. 10" spring will work for most any ride height and still keep the shock well away from bottoming out. With an 8" 440# spring I was almost at the top of the sleeve and a 24.5" distance, ground to the fender, on 23" tires.
SoSideways
05-25-2010, 08:02 AM
Oh wow, for some reason from what you said earlier in the thread, I thought you had to give them a lot more data than just that for them to come up with a custom valving.
Now, I am curious, could you ask them to come up with a digressive valving at that time? Or is the decision for whether you get a linear or digressive valving up to the engineers at Bilstein?
I did give them lots more. Those were just what was asked for in the post above mine. I would think they would work with you but just guessing. They are in the business of selling shocks.
Does anybody know if Koni's are linear? I was told they were.
SoSideways
05-25-2010, 08:13 AM
I see.
The 861x inserts are digressive.
Here is what the finished product looks like. I have 8" springs but am going to 10's to give me more adjustment room.
http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss263/logrmyk/IMG_01661.jpg
Here is how I did the bottom mount. After seeing how much height I need, it would be possible to weld the plates above the original shock mount without cutting it. I used 1/4" plate and drilled a 1/2" hole for a through bolt. I used some Coleman misalignment bushings to space the shock where I wanted it.
http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss263/logrmyk/IMG_01651.jpg
Here is the bottom. If you spaced the new mount up a bit, it might still be possible to mount the shock upside down up it would be close. The other way gives better clearance. The spring is only close to the UCA when at full droop.
http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss263/logrmyk/IMG_01731.jpg
This what I did for the top. The bracket is a Coleman ready made shock mount. I welded it to an old stock upper mount to lower the shock for a quick upper mount. Move the bottom mount up an inch above the stock Z32 shock mount and you could use a flat plate for the top with this same mount welded to it.
http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss263/logrmyk/IMG_01711.jpg
I really like the 7" stroke and short body. You can't help but be in the sweet part of the stroke.
Matt93SE
05-26-2010, 08:52 PM
I'm not gonna touch that comment with a 10' pole......:D
turtl631
06-02-2010, 10:07 AM
Last time I saw him, he was... that was a few months ago though.
I think Sean Farrah and his host of Zs have taken over the badass crazy stuff though and Kuah is just playing. (well I'm sure it's more than that, but he's not doing the time attack stuff anymore I don't think.)
Just saw a red slicktop TT on craigslist and remembered this thread. Interesting cars but definitely not much going on with them by and large. A nicely built one seems like it'd be a cool street cruiser but the nasty interior and maintenance in that tight bay pretty much shut down that idea.
My front 300gt Bilsteins are on the way.
My rears seem very stiff but it still seems to work quite well once I went to a bit softer springs. I may change to digressive valving someday to give it a feel.
Talking to a very good suspension guy this weekend and he suggested digressive as well. He didn't really like any twin tube because they have to give up something to get something else. Way over my head, something about high and low speed valving.
He likes adj. but that's way out of my price range.
I can have these revalved many, many times and still not get to the adj price.
Ruff Ryder 6
06-08-2010, 09:13 AM
Did you have the fronts revalved before being sent to you?
Yes, with the specs that Bilstein designed.
Recieved the 300gt fronts. For my ride height I need to use the extended housings which drop the insert into the housing below the top of the housing. This means that rocks /dirt/water will be funnelled and held against the shock rod. Doesn't seem like a good thing. What I did was cut the spring coilover collar to just below the housing top. I then welded spots on the housing to let me use the dirt covers that the shocks come with. The housing is smaller than the covers, thus the spot welds. I then pounded the cover on and everything is tight with nowhere for dirt to accumulate.
There is another issue with these inserts. They are approx. the same length as stock ones but the stock ones collapse all the way. These don't. This means the length has to be determined to get the travel you need where you need it. Hope that made sense.
a_ahmed
06-15-2010, 03:35 AM
this is an interesting development good work
mattah
06-19-2010, 08:55 PM
Recieved the 300gt fronts. For my ride height I need to use the extended housings which drop the insert into the housing below the top of the housing.
So you are using the stock front tubes, and welding an extension onto the bottom so that you can run the car lower and still have travel? Just want to check this, as I was hoping to get away with just mounting the 3000GT inserts into the front tubes.
Yes, that is what I have for now.
Richard is sending me his new housings so I hope to use them if the fit is where I want it and I'm pretty sure it is. They will be much better than the stock ones with all the changes I have done to get where I need them to be. I have cut the mounts off and made new ones to give me tire clearance. I used another old tube to extend them down for the insert. I'm thinking an inch will be about right for most folks.
Looking forward to Richards housings.
The rear shock valving that Bilstein designed is too stiff for me. My car now skips on rough stuff. I am thinking of trying something off the shelf from Speedway or someone like that. The 7" stroke works great and it is a common shock so I can just pick a valving and give it a shot. I am going to try some more advice from Bilstein on finding something softer with less rebound using the common track shocks.
Does anybody understand what the # numbers mean for rod end shocks?
I'm open to some informed help.
How much are you looking to spend? Koni has some nice rod end shocks.
Spend what I have to but I'm only interested in mono tube shocks. I really don't want adj either.
I had a warranty issue with s13 rear yellows and Koni has given me 4 dates on when the shocks would be coming in but each time they don't. This has gone on for close to two months. Not very thrilled with Koni at the moment. Hopefully there are manufacturers that want my business.
jmauld
06-21-2010, 06:52 PM
Why not just have Bilstein revalve them for you?
Not sure why you wouldn't want adjustable shocks, as different surfaces do need slightly different damping(mostly rebound changes).
I have done some work on some monotubes for the rear, PM me if you're interested in some of the information.
I probably will have these revalved but I don't have the time between races, for the rest of the season, to get it done. The shocks work better than anything I have ever had on there, even very stiff. I will compensate with softer springs for now and see how that works. I would like to buy another set and then work between the two until I am happy.
Def, I don't need more things to do at the races, like try to decide if I should adjust shocks. At big events I have 3 runs to get it right. Changing set up just makes it harder for me to do that. Really good shocks that are designed for my car will work better than any knob fiddling I can do at the track on a wild judgement/guess. IMHO
IMO, keeping a log of settings, conditions, and sites will give you a much better baseline for that event then just hoping somebody at bilstein "got it right." obviously they didn't this time...
I realize some people are adverse to adjustability on their suspension, but as long as you approach it with a level hea it is by FAR a better option than fixed shocks when you never change the valving.
I don't really advocateaking shock adjustments between runs, but I'm betting there are at least a few places you've been where you thought, "if I could only come back with a bit less/more rebound/compression damping, the car would likely be a bit faster."
Talk about a difference in Customer Service. Koni has blown me off over and over.
Called Bilstein today and explained my problem. The guy just said " Send me all 4 shocks and I will check/soften the rears, check the fronts to see if they were revalved and if not, revalve them and do it all in 1 day". Oh yeah, the good part " There will be no charge, we want happy customers".
I have 1 non race weekend after this one so I am pulling them monday and sending them in. I actually was thinking about Packwood but it will have to wait. This is the customer service I remember from years ago. At least it's not dead everywhere.
I also recieved Richards housings and they look great. They have the extended housing just right and give me the extra room for tire as well. Looking forward to putting them on.
Sent both sets to Bilstein, North Carolina. Turns out the fronts have not been revalved and they can't be done without a lathe to cut the bottom off. I actually like them quite well anyway. I think the stock 3KGT are fine for now. They softened the rears up and added more low speed bleed. They charged me the shipping to return them and that's it. Pretty cool. They are sending a dyno sheet of the rears, they said.
SoSideways
07-04-2010, 12:39 PM
So you're just running the 3000GT inserts the way they came from Bilstein with OTS damping?
What spring rate are you running with those again?
Yes, stock 3kgt. They seem to work pretty well for me. I have 440# front springs at the moment.
Bilstein softened the valving for the rears. I added a wing at the same time so it's not only the shock but this thing is planted like it never has been. I am pushing now. Have not had that issue for quite a while. Guess a splitter is next. I am upping the rear spring rate as well. I really like these rear shocks. Changing springs takes less time than jacking up the car and removing the tires. The 7 in stroke gives me so much room to use without running out of stroke.
Bilsteins rod end race shocks are well worth the effort and much easier to do than many alternatives, IMO.
McCoy
07-14-2010, 08:42 AM
logr, I got your splitter right here ;). We'll probably be up in Spokane this weekend too.
a_ahmed
07-14-2010, 08:46 AM
hey glad thats working out for ya. What spring rates are you running now and what sort of tires (compound and size)
I'm now at F 550# and rear 440#.
I run A6 275/35/15 Hoosiers.
Front height at fender is 25". I am making new top spring hats to lower the car another inch. My spring is above my tire completely so I can keep the car narrow. The tire is almost even with the edge of the fender.
Rear height at fender is 24".
logr, I got your splitter right here ;). We'll probably be up in Spokane this weekend too.
Is that some sort of homosexual talk? Not that there's anything wrong with that... I mean, whatever floats your boat... :p
Thought everyone would like to know. This is the best setup I have ever had on my car. The revalve of the rears did wonders. The stock 3000gt fronts balance it out nicely. I had 2 extremely good drivers try it this last weekend in Helena, MT at a series challenge. They absolutely loved it and were faster in it than in their own ZO6's.
It is one more way to go with our cars that works, at least for me.
I did pretty well too. I had FTD and FTD pax on sat, FTD on sun. I drove the ZO6 some runs and for the first time, I have to say it was easier to go fast in my car than the Z06. I needed practice as I am driving it at the Packwood Tour and possibly Nats. I can finally forget about buying a vette. They are still great cars though.
Matt93SE
07-26-2010, 09:11 AM
Niiiice.
think they'd work as well with road racing?
Z28ricer
07-26-2010, 10:31 AM
:facepalm:
I KNEW I should have gotten the bilstein housings instead of going for 8611's
McCoy
07-26-2010, 10:41 AM
:facepalm:
I KNEW I should have gotten the bilstein housings instead of going for 8611's
To be fair, logr is comparing the bilstein's to OTS koni yellows.
Z28ricer
07-26-2010, 10:44 AM
I know I wouldnt be expecting to run down track prepped cars with them, my build is pretty well strictly daily driver with a little turning ability to play at an autox event now and then, I really wanted to make sure I had a comfy ride so I figured the 8611 plan would guarantee I can adjust it a bit for whatever I feel like doing at the time.
However in reality, the bilsteins would have done just fine for the daily driving that my car will be doing 98% of the time.
Monty is right, I have never had 8611's. I didn't want the money, twin tube, housings in the rear or adjustability of 8611's. The Bilsteins seem great and since I have driven on the track quite a bit, IMHO they would work great. Autox is not THAT different, everything just happens quicker with less margin for error. Smoother is faster at both places and in autox, you actually know what and who is faster.
Richards front housing are great. I had to modify mine a bit because I have my springs above the tires but not many of you are running my tires or need that. I can give him the specs if anybody wants them. The 3000gt shocks have much more travel than they say. Mine are over 5.5" of useable travel with the bumpstop internally. I use the seal that came with them for the outer housing and have 2"+ of bump room.
The rears are 7" travel so that is real easy to get where you have plenty of bump. Glad to answer any questions on install or whatever, if I can.
I'm sure the 8611's are great shocks, just not what I wanted.
McCoy
07-26-2010, 01:13 PM
Oh, I understood your want to go this direction, just wanted others to know what you were comparing them too as most don't know what you were on before.
Some day well be able to meet up at a track day and have BOTH of our cars on track at the same time :).
Matt93SE
07-26-2010, 01:36 PM
Glad to answer any questions on install or whatever, if I can.
Will you fly to Houston and install them for me? I have $500 for the whole shebang, including install. :D
Jason M
08-26-2010, 07:15 PM
I'am interested in the specs of your front housings. I'am building my own housings for some 8611's and also plan on running the 15" 275 A6's.
Buy them from Richard. It is well worth it.
Jason M
08-28-2010, 01:41 PM
What diameter springs and what spring length did you go with?
Jason M
08-28-2010, 01:43 PM
What diameter springs and what spring length did you go with? I'am a diy guy, usually in the end it costs me more money, but I learn more doing things the hard way.
2.5x6, You will need to do lots of remaking before you get it right if you follow my way. Richard's fit the first time and look sooooo much nicer. Up to you. He has the jig for the 8611's. Many people go that way. I went with Bilsteins which are harder and non-adjustable. The travel is limited and needs to be in the perfect spot to do what I need.
josh18_2k
01-18-2011, 11:05 PM
heyyy you said you got the dyno's with the revalved rears? care to post up?
i just ordered a set of 3kgt fronts which i'll have dyno'd at a local shop here. since im sure people are dying to know :)
PDM075
02-01-2011, 05:59 PM
Josh, did you have Chris dyno the front inserts yet ? (spoke to him today about race shocks)
I looked into using full out aluminum bodied race shocks up front also, but they are not designed to handle the stress that strut bodies incur, so that is a failure. AFAIK...Bilstein does not have a proper race strut application like a Koni, Penske or others unfortunately. But will try the 3000GT route first to see if it is an improvement over the Advance Designs.
Spoke to various Bilstein employees today, and by the looks of it, yes, the 3000GT front inserts are rebuildable. They are crimped, but the engineers say you can cut or machine off the small section just below the crimps, and unscrew the bottom "cover" so that you can reshim/rebuild.
I have an suspension engineer coming up from L.A. on Friday to model my car and he will be likely dyno'ing the stock 3000GT inserts before we pull them apart, revalve and do our magic on them. (custom auto-x valving specifically for my car, schrader valve for our own fill pressure etc.)
Out back I will either take off the shelf Mitsubishi Evo rear shocks to fit over the 300ZX aluminum uprights (slightly shorter shock than the 300ZX, but the 300ZX units are non-existant in North America at this time), for speed and simplicity....pull them apart and revalve after dynoing....
OR go the Logr route and build an all out race shock with modified uprights and custom top hats. (might go this route as it saves some cost of Tein bearing mounts, AND is lighter and faster to rebuild. (we plan to build an external reservoir - and going with the race shock I can add double adjustable shafts/valves - which you CANNOT do with any off the shelf shock/strut/insert.
I'll keep the group posted as to the progress.
SoSideways
02-02-2011, 06:50 AM
Well, if you don't mind, ask the suspension guru if he would mind setting up a service for reshimming and revalving the Bilstein 3000GT or Evo dampers to a specific type curve and stuff, since an old member on here used to do it, but he has pretty much since dropped off the face of the Earth.
PDM075
02-02-2011, 11:26 AM
He can do it....but charges for it. (in the range of $600-$700 per set of 4 to dyno and custom revalve the Bilsteins. It may be more, since the fronts need to be machined first before they can be dis-assembled - we'll know better once my set is worked on)
Bilstein direct may be cheaper as I think they revalve for $75-$100/unit.
SoSideways
02-02-2011, 12:46 PM
Yeah well, it would be nice to have a baseline dyno to work off of.
I'm surprised nobody on here has done it yet, as quite a few members are running the 3kGT fronts.
josh18_2k
02-02-2011, 06:22 PM
i'll be dyno'ing the 3kgt struts on friday.
i shall post up asap
Matt93SE
02-02-2011, 06:36 PM
it's been 15 minutes. HURRY UP!
;)
SoSideways
02-03-2011, 07:31 AM
It's not Friday yet lol
Still feels like a Tuesday for me for some strange reason...
I received a shock dyno with my revalve of my rear shocks but there was no scale, just an arrow pointing to the left with top and bottom equal.
Don, Are you thinking digressive or linear valving?
PDM075
02-03-2011, 11:44 AM
To be honest Mike...I don't know. It's totally up to Shaikh as to what he feels he needs to make this work.
I'll find out tomorrow as we model both our SM cars....and then make the decision as to what route to take out back.
josh18_2k
02-03-2011, 07:29 PM
dude good luck actually getting your shocks...
dennis healy (BS solstice) has been waiting for a year now, and isnt even gonna be running the car next year.
josh18_2k
02-04-2011, 06:43 PM
merry christmas
so i asked as many question as i could, but the shock guy is pretty.. ambiguous. his business is designing valving and building shocks, so i can see why he wouldnt devulge too much.
what i did get out of him is that the bilstein curve looks really good for roadrace, koni looks better for autox. he says the very low speed stuff (< 3in/s) is for damping wheel motion over pavement (the little roughnesses you shouldnt feel in the car), and higher up for actual chassis stuff. he seems to be firmly against using low speed rebound to control chassis movement, but thats probably the roadracer talking. overdamping rebound makes for faster load transfer, but less compliance at the tire (faster through slaloms, but less overall traction).
so in short, the bilstein is probably better for total grip, but 86xx may be faster in transition heavy autox.
also, not pictured, the bilstein has very little hysteresis. i think the biggest split was only ~20lb on the rebound side. comp was even less. pretty awesome for a $99 shock.
he also says the initial 20lb offset is due to gas pressure.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p297/josh18_2k/LS1%20FC/Bilstein3000GTStrut.jpg
PDM075
02-04-2011, 09:00 PM
good stuff Josh..
I just finished up 8 hours with Shaikh on our race cars, and he too will be dynoing my front Stealth inserts, before we pull them apart to revalve and rebuild.
We spoke to Clarence of Bilstein again today from the West Coast division and he re-assured with Shaikh that the front Stealth inserts indeed can be disassembled, so we will be doing so once I get my housings from Richard and physically build my front and rear coil overs, then ship the shocks down to him to be taken apart, and revalved.
A reservoir can be built off the fronts too, but would come off the top threaded portion...which is not impossible, but we're gonna build them without reservoirs at first and fix the internal bump stops and valve them to my corrected spring rates and suspension NEW setup.
Out back the Mitsu units are easy to add an adjuster reservoir, and build the Schrader valve into...and is the larger 46mm shaft - which will work just fine for what we need. (no need to custom build a race body shock this first go-round)
Mike....digressive for sure for our usage, and that's where Shaikh excels with the Bilsteins vs the Konis, Motons, or other big $ shocks.
You guys are gonna FREAK once I finish up with this suspension project as to how we end up re-designing my car...... :D (within the first 10 minutes he presented to me his new setup theory and he guarantees it will make me faster against all my years of suspension buildups !!) I'm skeptical, but excited at the same time.... (his growing list of VERY serious auto-xers on the West Coast switching over to his new system is pretty damn impressive)
josh18_2k
02-04-2011, 10:07 PM
can you get them run up to 10in/s or so? i didnt think to have the dude cycle them past 5. the higher speed stuff seems pretty relevant for rougher autox's
PDM075
02-05-2011, 11:20 AM
I can ask...not too sure what he's going to do - but he has to baseline the shock as it is off the shelf, then he re-valves to his auto-x specific curves
SoSideways
02-07-2011, 06:47 AM
So... josh18_2k is building his for road racing, and PDM075 is doing it for Auto-x?
Wait, PDM... Don... as in PDM Racing in Canada?
e1_griego
02-07-2011, 07:26 AM
Josh is an autoxer as well.
SoSideways
02-07-2011, 07:48 AM
Hmm... the last few posts might sway my decision whether to go Bilstein or go Konis again...
Duffman
02-07-2011, 07:56 AM
Thanks Josh!
So I made an overlay of Josh's dyno with one I found of a Koni 8611 and 8610 somewhere on the internet. I believe in the thread I found it, they mentioned that the 8611 valving on the rebound side has actually been changed since then to be exactly like 8610 rebound. So ignore the Orange and Purple lines on the top, they only apply on the bottom.
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/iglooduck/R36-5022_8610_8611comp.gif
Comparing the two is pretty interesting. The rebound of the Bilstein is in the middle of the 86XX adjustment range. The Bilstein compression is very digressive, which should give good low speed control but with high speed (bumps) compliance.
SoSideways
02-07-2011, 08:48 AM
Well, now that you have posted that, I guess the Koni and Bilstein damper are quite close, but the Konis have the added perk of being adjustable right off the bat.
Hmm.......
Pretty sure I'm going to lose all my goatee hair from contemplating now.
Thanks a-holes!
josh18_2k
02-07-2011, 11:53 AM
you can tell that koni and bilstein go about rebound completely differently.
Chrsi Billings (Shock Shop, dude with the dyno) was saying the 3kgt strut is really typical of bilstein valving, and is how he valves most track shocks (he builds penskes and ohlins mostly for roadrace cars).
he likes low speed rebound and comp to be about equal to control unsprung mass over small stuff, surface irregularities (maximize steadystate grip), and then progressive rebound to help contorl body movement at higher speeds.
koni on the other hand uses low speed rebound to accelerate weight transfer.
according to chris, koni's valving is better suited to autox (lots of transition, not much steady state), while bilstein is better for track and rougher stuff.
he also said that he expects the bilstein's rebound curve to go digressive somewhere soon after 5ips, based on his experiance with oem shocks. thats why i'd like Don to run them up to 10 or so
Duffman
02-07-2011, 12:01 PM
Yep, every Sport/HD Bilstein dyno i have seen has looked pretty much exactly like this. Usually a kick in rebound around the 5ips point.
SoSideways
02-07-2011, 01:14 PM
Hmm... so for drifting use, the Konis' rebound might help settle the car as it is being thrown around from side to side?
josh18_2k
03-15-2011, 03:01 PM
just thought i'd add to this..
im going rodend route in my FC.
i sat on the phone for a while with a bilstein tech trying to figure out who can/will valve the shocks for me, and pretty much got nowhere. apparently they wanted me to design my own curves and send them in (no thanks). eventually he gave me a phone number.
Guy he referred me to is a suspension engineer at chrysler, builds ALMS shocks, FSAE design judge, and apparently is also a bilstein dealer on the side.
Dick @ http://ramengineeringmidwest.com
He was VERY easy to talk to, really nice/informative/etc. He's designing/building me a set of 6" SN bilsteins for $210 (+40 for coilover hardware). they're normally 160, and dont come valved at all. freaking awesome if i do say so myself. he also backs his valving- if im not happy, revalve is free.
The downside to this guy is he can only build take-apart shocks (typical for circle track shops). If i went with a sealed shock, he would have to build a dummy shock, then spec it out to bilstein Germany (the route logr went), and I'm assuming there would be extra fees on top of that.
So, I got a shock thats slightly more expensive, but I couldn't be happier with the customer service or the price. Just ordered today, so we'll see how quickly they get here...
One more good resource to keep in mind.
FWIW, Bilstein was great to me but a circle track guy built the rear shocks.
DJ just had some made by the same guy but don't remember if they were SN or not.
djsilver
06-13-2011, 06:11 PM
One more good resource to keep in mind.
FWIW, Bilstein was great to me but a circle track guy built the rear shocks.
DJ just had some made by the same guy but don't remember if they were SN or not.
I did buy the SN's so I could have them easily re-valved later. I didn't spend the extra money to get into the aluminum bodied shocks because I inverted mine so the body isn't unsprung weight.
Z28ricer
06-15-2011, 07:52 AM
FWIW, the evoMR bilsteins up front didnt have any crimp preventing disassembly when I took mine apart, and the top pin matched the top nuts included with my noltec plates.
Might be an easily revalvable insert you can swap out with those in your current ones.
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