Another 400 whp CodyAce Built Car...JWT vs Enthalpy ECU comparison results inside!

[CodyAce]

JWT vs Enthalpy ECU comparison dyno results!! Another 400 whp CodyAce Built Car

Finally managed to get my buddies car on the dyno today. While we were
interested in the power it made, we also both finally wanted to see a direct comparison between the two major ECU Rom Tuners that support our SR20 cars, Jim Wolf Technolgy and RS Enthalpy. We have been running the car on both without ANY issue. Both get great MPG, both the tires off in 2nd gear, and both function just as OEM. Dont get me wrong, Standalones are cool and functional, but at the end of the day this is a Street Car -- and gets street parts.

Now before this turns into a mud slinging contest, it is not what I set this out to be. Enthalpy and JWT are BOTH top notch tuners, and both are two excellent sources for out of the box, turn key tunes that make kickass power while remaining livable and economical. I would hesistate for a MOMENT to suggest either of them, as I personally have had great results with both companies.

RUN AND LOG FILES (Thank you SoapGun!) http://driftwolrd.com/r/dynoandlogfiles.zip

VIDEO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMuyXATr0Cc

Car Specs:
HP: 403 WHP
Torque: 323 Ft Lbs

Engine Specs:
SR20DET, 8.5:1 Compression, 86mm (stock bore/compression)
Built bottom end with CP Pistons, Stock Rods, Built by Cody Ace)
GT2871r .64 (T2 exhaust housing)
Jim Wolf Technology S3 Cams
Jim Wolf Technology ECU
Freddy Intake Manifold
Extrude Hone and Swained Exhaust Manifold, and Turbo
External Wastegate
3" exhaust
3" Inlet with Z32 MAF
72lb MSD's
(and all other associated parts)
Traps 120mph as well

I backed the car on, I got the computer ready to log, and we unlocked the brake. Ran the Enthalpy ECU at 10 psi, and then at 20 psi. Turned it off. Changed ECU's. And ran it again. Same conditions. The results are close, but it's evident that in this particular case the JWT ecu wins. Dyno RUn Files available upon PM, as well as Log Files from Datascan.

Results:

20psi
AFR: 11.8 to 12.0
Enthalpy: 381 HP / 310 Ft lbs
JWT: 400 HP/323 ft lbs

10psi:
AFR: 12.5ish for both
Enthalpy: 274 HP / 220 ft lbs
JWT: 279 HP/223 ft lbs

It's evident that at 10 psi, the differences are negligable, probably credited to the dyno itself. The results remain the same across all correction factors as well, but we like uncorrected to give a base number. STD showed the highest figures.

At 20 psi however, we were really surprised. The JWT ECU made nearly 20 more hp peak, and had a stronger powerband throughot. We were VERY happy with this. It's a damn near copy of my s14's setup (minus a few parts) and (go figure) the car makes similar power.

Graphs:
10 psi run on top, 20 psi run on bottom (Enthalpy Blue, JWT Red)

10psi
http://www.codyace.com/albums/mattdyno/matt10psi.jpg

20psi
http://www.codyace.com/albums/mattdyno/matt20psi.jpg



"Not bad" for a Junkyard Car

I'm not sure about you guys, but this car certainly doesn't look like its' got anymore than abotu 100 whp lol. I love it.

http://www.codyace.com/albums/album281/matt032010_26.sized.jpg




All in all, it was a nice day...one, because yet again I've got a 2871r car that I built at 400 whp level, and secondly, we finally got to test both of our ECU's out to see which one worked best right out of the box. Now with this said, I would love to send Martin and Clark the log files respectively to get a 'net reflash' to compare them again, as it would be interesting to see what there is 'left' in both tunes. We all can agree that an off the shelf tune from either is going to be conservative, just for safety sake...nobody wants the reputation of making HP, but melting pistons ya know?

FWIW: JWT S3 cams are the single best cams you can buy for T2/stock manifold cars. Most power, best graphs, and cheapest (as you don't need valvesprings). I don't care what anyone says, until I get a car that dynos differently, I'm going to stick by my guns.


As before, Dyno Run files and NissanDataScan Run files available via PM.

[WilloW]

I've been wanting to see this exact comparison, thank you for sharing.

[Solo_S14]

Awesome job man.

[WorkInProgressK]

What are the injector used and at what fuel pressure?

But it seems that your friend is better off with the enthalpy at 10 psi :P

Oh and doing it your self by salvaging some roms online,reading and having the chip burner isn't that more expensive :D

[Your Mom]

Very cool. Just looks like enthaply is less agressive. Compare the differences of a retune, how much and how fast can each get it done? Is JWT paying you? :)

I'm interested to see what my C1's will do soon. the main difference will be the extrude hone exhaust and standalone.

either way i highly doubt it will change your S3, ecu, and extrude hone preachings. hahaha

[CodyAce]

What are the injector used and at what fuel pressure?

72 lb MSD Injectors, both at 3 bar setting.

Oh and doing it your self by salvaging some roms online,reading and having the chip burner isn't that more expensive :D

(I really don't understand what you're saying haha)
I don't have any chip burner...in fact I'm glad I don't I'm sure I woulda blown my car up now if I did. I like the ROM tune as I keep my hands off hehe.



Very cool. Just looks like enthaply is less agressive. Compare the differences of a retune, how much and how fast can each get it done? Is JWT paying you? :)

I wish JWT was paying me considering how much I've spent there (both in my Turbo Altima, my S14, and in friends cars). Unfortunatly with such a small company it just doesnt' work that way. Free shipping usually is all I get.

Actually timing up top is mroe agreesive on the Enthalpy one as well (23/24) versus the JWT at 20/21. Base timing set at 15* as well, verified with light and timing mode.

I'm interested to see what my C1's will do soon. the main difference will be the extrude hone exhaust and standalone.


I freakin love C1 cams. Someday I'll build a real track car that can rev high and REALLY use the C1 cams to their potential hehe.

[CodyAce]

I am certainly trying to work out a 'reflash' dyno as well. Getting dyno time isn't an issue, just getting both chips here is.

With that said, I really need to work on adapting a map sensor to the wideband/logworks to get some pretty cool boost/rpm readings for the logs hehe. I could always borrow one from a honda buddy though, but I hate borrowing stuff.

[WorkInProgressK]

Lol I was talking about making a frankin-Rom. Bits and pieces from different rom and modify them to suit your likings :D

One of my cars is running on a PLMS daughter-board with roms that I burned. It isn't tuned, but the speed limiter is removed. It was my priority for my week-end at Mosport.

Basically with 300$ you can start tuning by your self.

by the way 72lb translate to how many cc's?

[SM240]

roughly 740cc equivelent

[Def]

The JWT ECU made more power at less timing and the Enthalpy ECU wasn't knocking? Doesn't make sense, as I've always seen these engines gain power until they start knocking on pump gas.

[Your Mom]

Is it possible that there is another factor affecting the value you are getting in your log. like how the ecu does the math and what you see. Like enthapy sets his knock map to a lower value, and sets ignition to 23 but whats actually happening is its seeing some knock and retarding ignition but your still seeing 23 degrees.

or same sanerio for jwt.

I guess are you sure the ignition value your getting is actual what your seeing at the crank

[Def]

Yea, I'm thinking something is up if you're logging ignition timing and less timing is yielding quite a bit more power.

On another note - never EVER do dyno pulls with smoothing at 5. It's worthless when looking at the power delivery and seeing what is going on with the timing. Smoothing of 1, maybe 2 is the highest I'd ever go. Smoothing 0 is best for tuning and looking at tunes.

[Colorado S14]

FWIW, I have seen another direct comparison on FreshAlloy ages ago where the JWT made less power than the Enthalpy. I think they seem to be pretty comparable.

[e1_griego]

Dumb question: why the low torque numbers? (ie what is that a function of?).

My car makes 340/300 @ 14psi on a 2876r, seems like it should make more than 310wtq peak.

[turtl631]

Interesting, the discrepancy doesn't make sense to me either but at least your test is pretty solid without the usual "different day, new turbo, 2 psi boost difference, swapped exhaust, but mostly the setups are the same!" BS.

In general, the stock block 2871R setup seems like one of the best HP/$ ways to go with these cars. I can understand the popularity as a built motor with a bigger T3 turbo really starts getting into the land of diminishing returns for the money spent.

[CodyAce]

Lol I was talking about making a frankin-Rom. Bits and pieces from different rom and modify them to suit your likings :D

I'll be quite honest: If I had a tunable car, I'd undoubtedly have it blown up. I don't trust myself, as I'd always want more and more and more (if that makes any sense).

The JWT ECU made more power at less timing and the Enthalpy ECU wasn't knocking? Doesn't make sense, as I've always seen these engines gain power until they start knocking on pump gas.

I think there is a certain point where dumping too much timing into the top end undoubtedly hurts the smaller t2 turbo cars. There is only so much airflow you can take advantage of. Could some cam timing make more or less? Sure...but it makes plenty now

Is it possible that there is another factor affecting the value you are getting in your log. like how the ecu does the math and what you see. Like enthapy sets his knock map to a lower value, and sets ignition to 23 but whats actually happening is its seeing some knock and retarding ignition but your still seeing 23 degrees.

or same sanerio for jwt.

Certainly a viable issue, but I am unsure. I know Clark essentially turns the knock sensors off in the high RPM's.

In regard to how the DataScan gets timing value, it always see's 15* as it's 'base' in the program...so it judges all timing values from that. How it does this is beyond me, I'm not well versed in how NDS (or even the ConZult) calculates this.

I guess are you sure the ignition value your getting is actual what your seeing at the crank

The crank itself is at 15* base. I know this through timing gun and locking the car into timing mode.

Yea, I'm thinking something is up if you're logging ignition timing and less timing is yielding quite a bit more power.

I spoke with Chris (Epstein) and Steve Shadows about potentially 'upping' global timing through the CAS (this was a few months back), and Chris was pretty adament about loosing power with it. I have also seen this with some of the v8 turbo cars my friends have - there is a certain point where adding to much timing is counter productive to more fuel and boost. Even the two large tuners near us (Evans Tuning and PSI Motorsports) follow the same philosophy.

Lol I was talking about making a frankin-Rom. Bits and pieces from different rom and modify them to suit your likings :D

I'll be quite honest: If I had a tunable car, I'd undoubtedly have it blown up. I don't trust myself, as I'd always want more and more and more (if that makes any sense).

The JWT ECU made more power at less timing and the Enthalpy ECU wasn't knocking? Doesn't make sense, as I've always seen these engines gain power until they start knocking on pump gas.

I think there is a certain point where dumping too much timing into the top end undoubtedly hurts the smaller t2 turbo cars. There is only so much airflow you can take advantage of. Could some cam timing make more or less? Sure...but it makes plenty now

Is it possible that there is another factor affecting the value you are getting in your log. like how the ecu does the math and what you see. Like enthapy sets his knock map to a lower value, and sets ignition to 23 but whats actually happening is its seeing some knock and retarding ignition but your still seeing 23 degrees.

or same sanerio for jwt.

Certainly a viable issue, but I am unsure. I know Clark essentially turns the knock sensors off in the high RPM's.

In regard to how the DataScan gets timing value, it always see's 15* as it's 'base' in the program...so it judges all timing values from that. How it does this is beyond me, I'm not well versed in how NDS (or even the ConZult) calculates this.

I guess are you sure the ignition value your getting is actual what your seeing at the crank

The crank itself is at 15* base. I know this through timing gun and locking the car into timing mode.


On another note - never EVER do dyno pulls with smoothing at 5. It's worthless when looking at the power delivery and seeing what is going on with the timing. Smoothing of 1, maybe 2 is the highest I'd ever go. Smoothing 0 is best for tuning and looking at tunes.

I know this, but it was what default was. Here is smoothing at 0 for you

http://www.codyace.com/albums/mattdyno/smoothing0.jpg

Dumb question: why the low torque numbers? (ie what is that a function of?).

I made 330 ft lbs and Matt made 325. There is a certain point where it just won't make any more torque IMO. Plus these are 2871, not 2876.

[CodyAce]

Interesting, the discrepancy doesn't make sense to me either but at least your test is pretty solid without the usual "different day, new turbo, 2 psi boost difference, swapped exhaust, but mostly the setups are the same!" BS.

I absolutly hate those comparisons...IMO when you see stuff like that, I Automatically dismiss it, as you'll see one at like 10pm at 60* and the other at 2 pm at 90* not fair really


In general, the stock block 2871R setup seems like one of the best HP/$ ways to go with these cars. I can understand the popularity as a built motor with a bigger T3 turbo really starts getting into the land of diminishing returns for the money spent.

Don't get me wrong, a big top mount car is freakin fun, but if you're using a smaller 30r to make 420/430 whp, it's not worth the loss of resopnse if you ask me. I had some fun last year with a friend who made 435 whp and 340 ft lbs with a 30r, and needless to say my car was quite faster in the goofing around that we did. Response is king for sure.

Also, as you mentioned, you can't beat the HP per dollar. Stock manifold cars making 370-400 whp is fantastic it you ask me! Everything bolts on nicely ad fits too.




In the end of the day, both Enthalpy and JWT are fantastic companies. My point was not so much to show the difference (as I never would have epected such a difference at 20psi) but to show how close they really are in regard to tunes. I love the fact that these two companies support our community with bad ass parts for the 'street crew'.

[CodyAce]

JWT Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMuyXATr0Cc

[Solo_S14]

I made 330 ft lbs and Matt made 325. There is a certain point where it just won't make any more torque IMO. Plus these are 2871, not 2876.

For comparison, I was making about 340 ft.lbs at peak Hp with my GT2871R (which had fallen from about 370 at 4750).

http://www.gonrad.com/200810/38020psi.jpg



Then I melted some pistons :)
New Steve Shadows tune this year.

[CodyAce]

A load based dyno (like the above) will always net more torque as it helps load the turbo...that's my biggest complain with our dynojet as it won't load ****. Sucks as we love diesel truck guys, but we simply can't give them a good measurement without a load bearing dyno :(

[juggernaut]

I absolutly hate those comparisons...IMO when you see stuff like that, I Automatically dismiss it, as you'll see one at like 10pm at 60* and the other at 2 pm at 90* not fair really



Don't get me wrong, a big top mount car is freakin fun, but if you're using a smaller 30r to make 420/430 whp, it's not worth the loss of resopnse if you ask me. I had some fun last year with a friend who made 435 whp and 340 ft lbs with a 30r, and needless to say my car was quite faster in the goofing around that we did. Response is king for sure.

Also, as you mentioned, you can't beat the HP per dollar. Stock manifold cars making 370-400 whp is fantastic it you ask me! Everything bolts on nicely ad fits too.



Good to see your combo is repeatable Codyace.

I've always wondered how a HKS/Garrett 3037 being a T2 inlet / T3 outlet turbo would go on the stock manifold (extrude honed of course) with an external gate either on the manifold or hanging down off the ex housing for that true sleeper look.

The 3037 turbo's come with some unique ex a/r's (up to 1.12) and is also available in a 52 trim version, and also with or without the port shrouded covers.

The combination of the stock manifold and 3037 52 trim comp would surely make it a very solid 400rwhp+ responsive combo. Plus it would minimise some of the under bonnet heat normally associated with top mount tubular manifolds. Heck you could still even retain the tin heat shield on the stock ex manifold if you hung the ex gate off the ex housing as I suggested above.

I also don't think the T2 inlet would pose a restriction at these hp levels. I know of someone in Aus that made over 500rwhp with the T2 3037 56 trim in top mount form....and went on to run a mid 10 sec quarter at 134mph in his manual box street s13 with an E85 tune last year. From memory it was some sort of Aus quarter mile record for an s13.

[CodyAce]

I also don't think the T2 inlet would pose a restriction at these hp levels. I know of someone in Aus that made over 500rwhp with the T2 3037 56 trim in top mount form....and went on to run a mid 10 sec quarter at 134mph in his manual box street s13 with an E85 tune last year. From memory it was some sort of Aus quarter mile record for an s13.

Thanks!

I guess the biggest issue IMO with the T2 aspect is the manifold backpressure itself. I think most people often fight the motor itself when making these setups. I guess with big enough cams and proper tuning you could 'skirt' around that issue, but for th emost part, a stock manifold/t2 car is going to peak in the low 400's for sure. Could more be made on race gas/more boost/ maybe...but I'm not looking to be the one who finds out :D

Awesome to hear about some big power being made on the 'Island of speed' :D Rollin 134 out the back door is HAULING the mail for sure :D

[juggernaut]

Funnily enough I've seen the T2 manifold used in a rail type dragster. The flanges were cut off and rotated in a way the converted the manifold to a T2 top mount.

[juggernaut]

Actually it ran 136mph...I short changed him a couple of mph!:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V0jZvOrb7c

[0wn3r]

I just found this on Zilvia?

JWT vs Enthalpy comparison - A bit more info (http://zilvia.net/f/engine-tech/324855-jwt-vs-enthalpy-comparison-bit-more-info.html)

[CodyAce]

Actually it ran 136mph...I short changed him a couple of mph!:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V0jZvOrb7c

Holy cow how did I miss this? That's really haulin ass!

I just found this on Zilvia?

JWT vs Enthalpy comparison - A bit more info (http://zilvia.net/f/engine-tech/324855-jwt-vs-enthalpy-comparison-bit-more-info.html)

Responded - I do feel bad about it, as I never even considered the business aspect of things.

[SoSideways]

I just had to click on this thread and smile because I'm pretty sure this is about the same car that Cody posted on Zilvia about, and without that stupid dumba$$ Hemicharger clogging up the thread, this thread is only 3 pages long, instead of like 6 or 7 lol