Interest in complete spherical bearing solution for upright?

[Def]

EDIT

Got a request to provide updates in the first post here since this thread is becoming quite long.

Status as of 10/11

4 sets of control arm bearings will be ready soon, 2 are already spoken for, and I'll be contacting people in the order they expressed interest to see if they'd still like a set.

No shock mount bearings at this time, but I am looking into getting the various bits machined, so depending on the details those could be happening soon.

EDIT over




I’ve got an idea for a useful product for the NRR community, but it’s going to take the community to get it going.

I’ll begin with a long engineering diatribe about safety and spherical bearings in the aluminum Z32 rear uprights…

I'm not totally satisfied with the safety factor that results when just pressing in a 30mm OD spherical bearing from Midwest Control in stock Z32 aluminum uprights. I've thought long and hard about it, and I'm just not comfortable with running them since you over double the tensile stress from a radial load on the upright pivot points compared with stock bushings. Every "conservative" approach I look at puts things pretty close to yielding under very hard cornering like in a dip where you can achieve over 1G even on street tires.

Additionally, you have to grind quite a bit of the pivot points away for off the shelf bushings since the stock bushings are designed to be a press fit.


So I've been contemplating a total solution that presses a bearing into a very hard sleeve that's as wide as the upright pivots and includes misalignment inserts/spacers for the bearing so you just press it in and bolt up your arms to it. I can't find anything off the shelf that will accomplish this, so I would need to get some raw materials and get some machining and put in some labor to assemble everything. For that to be economically feasible, I'd have to sell at least a few of them.


So I thought I'd throw this out there and see if there was any interest in what initially seems to be a very safe solution to significantly reduce friction in our rear suspension.

***Rant over***

The big thing I want to know is - what do people feel is a "fair price" for ready to go spherical bearing assemblies to replace the camber, toe, and traction arm pivots on a stock or Z32 aluminum upright? You’d need 3 per upright, or 6 total per car. I’d also have to do a reasonable production run of probably 20-30 bearings just to get a machine shop to even look twice at it, and even then it’ll be a challenge.

If you guys think there is interest, and can maybe say with some certainty you’d purchase something like this, then I’ll probably start doing some design work and looking into machining quotes. The only reason to do something like this is to come in below the cost of the “other stuff” out there, which is pretty astronomic given what they are. Hopefully there is enough demand at a lower price point to develop this product.

[McCoy]

I just got a set of Z32 uprights a few weeks back and am planning on adding them within the next week or two. I am always willing to try new things and help the community where I can.

I'm not sure on what a fair price is, not even sure what your going to have to pay (raw material, your time, machinist time). So, I guess what I'm saying is that I'll help by being apart of the first run of these... I'm sure the price won't be to bad, I'm not poor, but try to be wise on my car parts shopping for the sake of my marriage :)

[Def]

The machining cost is going to be the big question mark, especially if I can't find a place that won't mind the hard steel I'd like to use chewing up some bits.

If I had to guess, I imagine costs would be somewhere in the $35+ per bearing assembly range once things got rolling. Just curious as to where most would start to get into the "now I'm not as interested" phase before even starting to really pursue it.

I've got all the designs done in my head, and even did a few napkin calcs today and things looked good.

[AceInHole]

At $35 per bearing I'd put down money right now. I'm guessing it'll cost a lot more than that, though.

What about making a monoball housing that fits into the upright? Something with a C-clip or screw in retainer, to make it easier to replace the bearing? That way, you only have to machine the housings on a lathe, and pop in standard sized bearings. That way, you could replace bearings easily (and cheaply).

[a_ahmed]

id be interested... as soon as i get a hold of a z32 upright as the other guy backed out on me when i found it :(

[2Fass240us]

What about making a monoball housing that fits into the upright? Something with a C-clip or screw in retainer, to make it easier to replace the bearing? That way, you only have to machine the housings on a lathe, and pop in standard sized bearings. That way, you could replace bearings easily (and cheaply).
I like this idea, but would be down for the original approach.

[Def]

At $35 per bearing I'd put down money right now. I'm guessing it'll cost a lot more than that, though.

What about making a monoball housing that fits into the upright? Something with a C-clip or screw in retainer, to make it easier to replace the bearing? That way, you only have to machine the housings on a lathe, and pop in standard sized bearings. That way, you could replace bearings easily (and cheaply).

It probably will cost more than $35 a bearing, as I see that as a lower floor on the possible price range. I really don't think it's worth it if they're going to have to sell more than the $50-60 a bearing range, as that's a lot of money(risk) to take on and I have my doubts as to the ability to generate sales.

I'd like to avoid anybody having to machine their arms - and the only way this is going to get affordable is to use off the shelf bearings, so they would be replaceable in a sense. I'm still not sure what retaining method I'm going to use, but it likely won't be mechanical for ease of assembly and reducing machining costs.

[turtl631]

What about bearings for the Z32 shock mount? I'd be interested in those since using the uprights on a S14 causes a bit of twisting of the stock bushing that would be fine with a spherical bearing.

I'd like to stay I'd get in on this for the full upright set, but I don't think I can afford 6 x $35++ unfortunately.

[veilside180sx]

What i was looking at doing was having them machine the carrier wider to fit the Z32 spindle all the way across, but still use the standard com bearing. (somewhat similar to the SPL, etc design strategy.

Those bearings don't see an extremely high load on an individual basis, so I wouldn't try to get an amazingly strong bearing in there.

If you used a steel slide in retainer with c clips you would have to use a smaller bearing in the process I would imagine.

[Def]

A custom machined COM bearing sounds like you'd need a huge run before they'd bother.

So far the approach I like the most is machined stainless round stock into a sleeve that a MCP COM bearing can slide into, then also machining stainless bearing inserts to bring the ID down to the stock M12 bolt size and provide full bearing load on that as well. I'm thinking a chemical bond is the best option for holding the bearing in, as snap ring grooves etc. are going to start driving the machining costs way up in a hurry. So you could replace the bearing after heating up the sleeve to break the chemical bond then press in another $6-8 bearing with some bearing mount.

If the idea takes off for the upright pivots, I might do the same thing for the shock mount, but the cost will be higher due to the much larger material needed(a little less than 2").


I already modeled up a sleeve and simple insert, and the design allows for 5.7 degrees of articulation, which should be more than enough. I might send it out to a few places and get a rough idea of machining cost.

[AceInHole]

The grooves for the snap rings shouldn't add too much to the operation. I'd imagine it'd be one extra op to the machining process. You'll also only need 1 sharp edge, as the inside can taper up (inner part will be held by the bearing), making it easier to do on a lathe.

[Def]

I'm trying to make these as "lean" a machining operation as possible to get them affordable, and the 2 extra machining operations to do the snap rings would pretty much double the complexity of the sleeve. There isn't enough bearing area for a snap ring anyway. To top it off, I'm not that big of a fan of snap rings, as they can and do fail in cyclical loading situations like the bearing being slightly loose in the sleeve for whatever reason.

[AceInHole]

I'd snap ring one side if I were to do it, and just flange the other (just a step in the barrel). Looking at it closer, I'm not sure if you could get a bearing that would allow enough wall thickness to do that. Otherwise, I wonder if it'd be better to do it as 2 seperate peices, one as the bearing holder, and the other as the retainer.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/PirateS14/BallSpacer.jpg

I guess making 2 peices is still more work, so perhaps combine the stepped barrel with the glue, for at least 1 direction of solid restraint?

[Def]

The problem with reducing the ID of the sleeve is that you run out of articulation angle in a hurry. Not that you need much back there, but solid binding would be a bad thing so I'd like to leave as much articulation as possible. I did consider about the same design you drafted, but it didn't look like there would be much "meat" holding it in there. I wonder if the small stressed area holding the bearing in would eventually deform slightly and cause some play.

It really wouldn't be hard to change the bearing out if needed when held in with bearing mount. Just heat it over 350-450 deg F with a torch and the bearing mount releases and you press the bearing out. Installing a new one would make it need to be centered, but that's pretty trivial for anybody that would go through the lengths of replacing the bearing.

[Def]

BTW - if you're worried about strength, using loctite bearing mount stick will provide right at 6000 lbs of shear strength. I can't see needing more than that...

[Def]

Here's a crappy pic to give people an idea of the product. I tried to keep things as simple as possible and still provide all necessary functionality and ease of install.

There is only one insert in this pic as well.

[AceInHole]

It looks a lot like what SPL sells.... which isn't a bad thing. I'd be in for a set if they're available soon enough (i.e. by the time Rich makes my rears, which gives you a loooooooooooooong time).

[Def]

Yea, the old SPL bushings look like they use about the same method, which is about the only way to do it using off the shelf bushings.

The newer stuff from SPL looks like this I think, or at least their shock mount does.

http://www.splparts.com/main4/parts/NissanShared/Suspension/Multilink/SPLShockMountBushing.jpg

[AceInHole]

That's just the shock mount. The control arm joints are simple press-in bearings similar to yours, unless they've been discontinued.

[Def]

I got a quote back from a local place and it looks like it's going to put my pricing around $70-80 per bearing, and that's barely making any profit.

I'm going to talk to the guy and see if possibly switching materials will get the machining costs down. The inserts are what are driving the price now, so if I can shave just a few bucks from each of those it'll allow the price to come down.

[veilside180sx]

Only now did i catch this...ROFL

It looks a lot like what SPL sells.... which isn't a bad thing. I'd be in for a set if they're available soon enough (i.e. by the time Rich makes my rears, which gives you a loooooooooooooong time).

[Def]

Well... I got a quote for just labor, which saved some money, but still not enough to make them price competitive in a small run.

Essentially the part I thought would be cheapest is the most expensive(the insert), and you need 2 of them per bearing, so it is really driving costs up.

I might look into alternate materials and get some other quotes, but at the price I got, I'm thinking it would be cost effective to just buy a small metal lathe and do them myself and essentially get every set after that for tool wear + material cost + time invested.

I only want to bother if it looks like there is interest though...

[turtl631]

I'd love to support this Def, I just don't think I can swing that kind of cost. If I were in, it would be only for the shock mount bearings for the Z32 upright.

As an aside, the president of my university (undergrad) had a PhD in engineering and loved to tinker on the side. He had a metal lathe in his basement and made cool parts for his old cars (Ford Model A, some old VW, MG TD). He also made a clock with all the wooden gears exposed, and supposedly he made the gears also. Cool guy.

[Def]

Well, there's really no point in doing it if I can't get the price at $50/bearing or less IMO. Otherwise why wouldn't people just buy the SPL stuff right now right?


I'm still not really sure why the machining costs are as high as they are. They came back about 2-3 times what I thought they would be, and I like to think I at least have some handle on what it costs to have stuff made since I do it some for my job.


I think I could definitely undercut the $300/pair rear shock mount bushings with a sleeve/insert design, but I don't think there's a big enough market there given that it will probably be $150/pair or so(if the machining costs hold about the same).

[Def]

I'm going to go ahead with my backup plan of just making everything myself. This will require me purchasing a lathe and a few other tools, but I think that's the only way I can offer them at a lower price.

I've also decided to offer new hardware(bolts/nuts) for the upright bearings since most 240's I see online look like they were pulled out of the ocean just moments before the pics were taken. Does anybody that thinks they'd be interested for around $40-45/bearing($80-90 a pair) have a problem enlarging the holes on the upright side of your arms to 1/2"(12.7mm vs. the stock 12.1mm)? This gives more strength on the bolt, and ultimately gives more thickness to the sleeve that holds the bearing in due to the size I can use.

I didn't think this would be a major problem, but let me know if anybody has an issue with it.


Since I do need to buy tooling and whatnot for this, it might take me a while to get up to speed, but I do have plans to eventually get this thing rolling.


...and yes Ross, with me having the tooling it becomes even easier to create inserts for the shock mount. But I doubt I'll get to them on the initial run. Price will be higher than the smaller bearings, due to increased bearing size and increased material cost(larger diameter).

[2Fass240us]

Does anybody that thinks they'd be interested for around $40-45/bearing($80-90 a pair) have a problem enlarging the holes on the upright side of your arms to 1/2"(12.7mm vs. the stock 12.1mm)? This gives more strength on the bolt, and ultimately gives more thickness to the sleeve that holds the bearing in due to the size I can use.

I didn't think this would be a major problem, but let me know if anybody has an issue with it.
I don't think this would be problematic.

[AceInHole]

Drilling to a half inch is easy. So looking at like $300 for all 6 bearings? I'm in.

[Def]

Yea, $300 or under for all 6 bearings is the target.

[Def]

Another question for the target demographic...


Would anodizing of the bearing shell and misalignment inserts add value vs. raw machined aluminum? I'm thinking red on the color, but might pick something more unique...

[AceInHole]

Considering these will be almost fully enclosed by wheel, tire, and upper arm bracket.... I don't think I'd care all that much. Might be cool to show off while swapping tires, though?

[Def]

I think it might help penetrate the dorifto kiddie market - they like pretty colors. First test run likely won't be anodized, but after that who knows.

It sounds like something fun(and dangerous) to do at home - acid and hydrogen gas FTW.


Purple anodizing is prety baller - might look into that. Wiggins fitting style.

[turtl631]

Whatever makes it cheaper overall is what I vote for. If anodizing increases sales and volume, thereby decreasing cost, go for it. If you pull a Hindenberg, nobody will get bearings and we'll all hate you.

[Def]

Again on the drilling to 1/2" - what about on the lower rear shock mount? I realize some might get more nervous about doing that to shocks compared to suspension arms.

Since there will likely be fewer misalignment spacers for the shock mounts I'd have to make, I suppose I could do the extra(lots extra) machining on the spacers to make them work with the stock 12mm bolt. That's kind of where I'm leaning, because I personally wouldn't want to take a drill bit to a nice set of Richard's 861x housings, so I can see where others might feel the same way.

I'd like to go stainless steel due to the potential for impact stress, but the cost is prohibitive to put it mildly. I think 6061 with anodizing should be good though, so I'll likely make anodizing mandatory on that.

I'm thinking about a few different ways to do the design, and cost is the driving factor of course.

The "other option" is pretty pricey at $300/pair. The material size is much larger, and machining time is (much) greater, so that's going to drive up the cost. Does $150-200/pair sound out of the realm of "yea I'd buy some of those?"

[Def]

I'm thinking about an option on the Z32 lower shock mount. Use a 1/2" bolt as the base package, then if you want more involved machining on spacers that use the stock 12mm bolt it might be say... $40 more for the pair?

I've also decided to go with Aurora spherical bearings for all assemblies - mil-spec son! Original price target still stands.

[SoSideways]

Aurora spherical bearings are secksee.

I also vote for not having any kind of finish on these bearings, as they will not be seen, plus if you coat it, you're doing more work for something that won't really be seen, and might end up costing you more, and risk blowing your house up.

[Def]

Blowing your house up with hydrogen gas would be a cool way to go though...

Got it on the anodize part. I think I will only do the shock mounts anodized though - stress is much higher there and I'm worried about long term surface fretting since 240 guys like to go agricultural on the track and bang stuff up. :D

[a_ahmed]

Any news onthis, im getting my spindles soon God willing...

[Def]

I actually got the lathe yesterday - I'm pretty impressed with it given it was something I can afford. It was pretty fun making a mess of aluminum chips even though I don't have it mounted on a workbench yet.

I need to order the material, bearings, and a few misc. pieces. I've decided to shoot for ALL sphericals(camber, toe, traction and Z32 shock mount) using the stock 12mm bolts. So no drilling of arms or shocks back there.

I'll have something more firm in a week or two.

[2Fass240us]

Sweet!

[a_ahmed]

That sounds so awesome bro, because check this out:

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/zilvia_album/P1020015.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/zilvia_album/P1020014.jpg

That's what I'm getting in the mail soon. In other words, I will need the bushings anyways as its no bushings in there as you can see, plus the old rotten rubber ones in the other... I need all of them.

Out of curiousity what lathe did you buy, lol i might be intersted to get it too down the line... i need some tools, my dad gave out his.

[Def]

It's a Cummins 7x12 mini-lathe - nothing special. It's pretty much the same lathe as all the other 7x12 Chinese made lathes out there, but the Cummins is a bit cheaper and comes with some extras. They're sold on eBay for the cheapest by "toolsnow" I think.

Those are nice looking uprights - very clean. I'm thinking of either tossing mine in a sandblaster, or maybe just hitting them with some paint.

[a_ahmed]

You know i was doing some reading and people were saying putting a spherical bearing for toe is not a good idea, kuah at spl runs the nismo one for the toe bushing as opposed to a spherical one. The rest he said was spherical.

Also what's the plan to take care of dirt, so that maintenance/longetivity is not an issue especially if one were to drive it on the street.

[Def]

I don't know why you wouldn't want to run a spherical bearing on the toe link, as I'd say that'd be the most important link to remove compliance from.

There are seals out there that can be used, but they'll require me to change the length of the misalignment spacers. I thought about just letting people source their own due to them not being cheap, but since I have to make a change to the other pieces to use them, I'm inclined to sell them all as 1 piece.

It'd be at least $10/pair of bearings for the seals. Still worth it?

[Def]

BTW - order the material, just need to get a few more things.

I probably won't be able to mess with it until after next Monday though. This management class I'm taking now is not fun in the least...

[a_ahmed]

yeah i dont have my own garage.. so ill have to take it to a friend's shop to install for me everything and i dont want him scratching his head when i get all the parts to him heh... so, I also want to make sure its not going to need maintenance/get dirty/not last/etc...

I wish I had my own garage though... living in appartment doesn't help...

Looking forward to it :) So keep the thread alive.

[Def]

I'll go ahead and order some seals then, and just have them as an option. I don't think things will get that dirty back there, but understand the urge to keep things clean.

[No Rotr]

I am def in for these, big discount over SPL. Keep us updated.

[BigOdom1]

well i am in to since i have some nismo bushings but am unsure of them due to a part number discrepancy i have. i think they are fine though

[amgvr4]

Hey, I just joined the site, but have been fabing up parts for Nissan/Datsuns on my 10" Southbend lathe for several years now. One item I have made many literations of are adjustable TC rods and control arms for 510s and 240sx. Im in the process of making up bushing replacements similar to what is being discussed here, only for standard cast iron uprights. The biggest problem with any kind of mass production on a small lathe is it is 100x more time consuming than you think it will be. The ability to to keep measurements consistent is also a problem. The simplest part of this type of bearing is the spacers that fit in the SB and extend to the suspension link. Even when Im in a groove and cranking them out it takes roughly 15 min per spacer. Times that by 12 for each set and you will spend about 3 hr just turning out spacers for one set. I have found that its usally not the cost of materials that make these type of projects a hard sell, it the time to make the parts. I was all gun hoe to produce a "better 510 tc rod" a few year back and sell them for much less than anyone else. I did end up with a good functional set, but I never made more than one cause investing 5 hrs into something you can only sell for $150 just isnt worth it. Where this might be doable is to find a shop with a cnc lathe that can turn these out in large quantities with very little man hours. Also you might look into possibly having your local community collage machinist program take it on as a project, as they will often do it for free if you supply the metal. This option though is often a bit of a waiting game. Sorry if Im sounding really pessimistic here, just wanted to share my experiences with projects like this. Just for Fun, here are a few of the project I have taken on....
240sx coilover conversion, adjustable tc rod and lca on a '73 510.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n74/amgvr4/Carpics465.jpg
510 tc rods
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n74/amgvr4/Carpics409.jpg
240sx tc rods
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n74/amgvr4/32207018.jpg
subaru wrx vlsd conversion stubs for 510
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n74/amgvr4/Carpics398.jpg

[Def]

I have spent considerable time sourcing off the shelf components that I will do some machining on, rather than machining everything from raw stock. I agree it wouldn't make sense to do 100% of the machining myself(I'm not a complete n00b at things like this).

Time will definitely be the limiting factor when producing them, and it will start out with a few test runs just to make sure everything works in the real world as the calculations suggest, so I hope people realize this isn't a full blown operation pumping these out.


As far as a CNC quote - machining time on a CNC lathe is out of this world expensive for a project of this scope. If I was doing that it would be every bit as expensive as the "typical offerings."

[amgvr4]

Sorry again if I came off as "more capable than thou", some times its hard to convey thoughts properly on forums. The homework is the hardest part. As im sure you are well aware it is often a game of ordering samplings of possible parts and using trial and error to come up with the best combo. Good luck and congrats on the lathe purchase, I don't know what I would do without mine anymore.

[Def]

No hard feelings, and I guess I haven't completely laid out my plans here so I can see where it sounds like I'm trying to start up a full blown machine shop on my little 7x12" lathe, but that wasn't the intent at all.

I think I've got everything figured out to where the labor won't be crushing, but I guess we'll see once I really get down to it.

On a side note, I got my 1-7/16" drill bit yesterday - thing is pretty big! eBay - $20!!! Can't beat that!


I have called around for getting a production run made to my specifications, and I could almost justify it if they would allow a run of say 250-500 spacers just due to the time it'd save, but the minimum order seems to be 1000 or 2000 pieces, which is quite a bit of money even with economies of scale!


I really wish the CNC option was possible, but I got two quotes, and essentially it was coming out to about $20 of machining per spacer, which is just ridiculous given how simple I made them to get cost down.

[Epstein]

emachineshop.com?

[Def]

Never heard of them, I'll do a quick drawing and see what the price comes in at.

[Epstein]

They're pretty cool. I heard about them years ago and a few friends got some onesy twosy things done there. A guy from Wired magazine CAD'd up a guitar body from plexiglass and had it made there, too. Neato.

[Def]

Yea, I played around with it for a bit, and their pricing isn't too bad on decent runs. I might use them for some stuff with the Z32 rear shock mount.

Speaking of the shock mount, still trying to decide if I should go with snap rings for the bearing or not. Calcs and technical data suggest it should be more than fine with bearing mount, and the snap ring grooves would be a major PITA to machine.

I guess that calls for some testing in the field to really say for sure.

[amgvr4]

here is the basic concept I am using for mine, Seems to be simple enough, but will require about 7 opperations to complete the housing. I will probably use 1/2" bolts and some bushing stock I have that is predrilled to .5" cut to the correct lengths. The school I went to for my machinist classes has two cnc lathes and I might try and have them turn some of the parts out for me.

Link:
http://progressauto.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=59&products_id=491

[Def]

With 1/2" bolts it's pretty easy to do using -8 COM bearings.

I think I've got the whole thing down to about 6-7 operations total for housing + spacers using the stock 12mm bolts. I really think it's better from a performance standpoint to use bearing mount vs. snap rings too. It will be hard to ensure the snap ring is loaded upon installation, so that'll lead to some rattling(unless you put a touch of bearing mount on there, which means you might have wanted to go that way from the get go).

[Umai Kakudo]

For some additional ideas - There are several monoball replacement parts for racing Porsche applications.

http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/monoballs/911weathersealedmonoballs.htm

http://www.elephantracing.com/images/monoball/911/rearmonoball/rearweathersealset.gif

I really like their seal design as the standard Seals It stuff probably wouldn't fit for this application.

Although I'm not sure how much rubber seals are necessary if you use good quality Teflon bearings. In wet climates some times the seals just hold in the water and rust the bearing out faster.

[turtl631]

There are so many trick products available for Porsches. It makes me feel better about getting blown away by megabucks 911s at the track. That website has some great little tech articles about suspension friction and various bushing/bearing types. Good find.

[Def]

For some additional ideas - There are several monoball replacement parts for racing Porsche applications.

http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/monoballs/911weathersealedmonoballs.htm

http://www.elephantracing.com/images/monoball/911/rearmonoball/rearweathersealset.gif

I really like their seal design as the standard Seals It stuff probably wouldn't fit for this application.

Although I'm not sure how much rubber seals are necessary if you use good quality Teflon bearings. In wet climates some times the seals just hold in the water and rust the bearing out faster.

Oh believe me, for $250 a pair I could overengineer the hell of these things for you guys. :D

I've wrestled with the idea of a seal a lot, and while I do think the Seals-It seals will work to some degree, any seal you go with will not be water tight. So I think in the area you're going to be dealing with sitting water to some extent, and I'm not convinced they will be blasted with grit where they are.

I do think the rear shock mount will get the most grit blasted at it, so I am still thinking of going with a seal on that one.

The bearings are going to be Auroras, so pretty much as good as it gets.

[a_ahmed]

QA1 or aurora are the best choice... teflon lined self lubricating heimjoints... now... however, the seals are an important thing for me.... i want durability out of them... street + abuse at track = win....

[Def]

You're going to have to replace the bearings very quickly if you get water in there and it sits for a few days next to the ball, versus them lasting probably 80k+ miles before developing excessive breakaway torque or radial play without the risk of rust on the race/ball.

[90kacoupe]

im sure as long as u keep them greased good they will last a while.

[Def]

You don't grease them, they have teflon liners and are self lubricating. The lack of grease helps keep dirt/dust from staying on the ball for the most part.

[a_ahmed]

so what kind of solution are we going to have here for longetivity, thats my main concern at the moment... and long term what sort of replacment options we'll need in case def goes to the moon and we can't contact him lol

[turtl631]

He said- they're self lubricating with Teflon liners. You keep them clean, not greased or covered up, and they should be fine for a long time. The bearings themselves are just going to be off the shelf Auroras, so you should be able to replace them pretty easily. Just whip out the caliper and measure them, or even better, ask Def when you buy them from him. FYI, Def is planning a trip to Jupiter, not the moon, but either way, he'll probably be incommunicado so you better get this bearing replacement thing figured out ASAP.

[a_ahmed]

http://www.the-rocketman.com/celeb/KY%20JODI%20MARTIANS.jpg
http://www.area51zone.com/hanger18.jpg

it's out there

[Def]

so what kind of solution are we going to have here for longetivity, thats my main concern at the moment... and long term what sort of replacment options we'll need in case def goes to the moon and we can't contact him lol

Like I said, these are some of the best spherical bearings you can buy. They're -8 COM Aurora COM bearings, nothing hard to find. They're going to be bearing mounted in a sleeve, so you just hit the sleeve with a torch for a while then should be able to pound one out, then you'd need to clean the sleeve up and put a new bearing in.

But like I said, these bearings should last a comparable length of time to when a factory bushing is still viable.


You also need to realize that using seals and getting water next to the ball of a bearing that stays there for days on end will eventually pit it with rust. When this rust moves across the PTFE liner, that's when things will go south VERY quickly. For at least the 3 upper pivots, I don't think seals are needed, nor are they going to work well even if they're there given the geometry of the spherical bearing.

Seals aren't that common on most spherical bearings because unless you can really seal them up VERY tightly, it's kind of an either or thing where you reduce grit but increase water contact with the race.

[a_ahmed]

damn, so if i were to wash the car LOL and water magically finds its way there we're ****ed hmm lol no more washing? :P jk, i want to know what im getting myself into here, as i dont want failure...

[Def]

It's mainly with seals that water is a major problem, because it'll sit there by the race for extended periods of time. Without seals things will dry out quickly.

Plus remember that the end of the arms tend to "shield" most of the area from dirt/dust, so my gut feeling is that seals aren't necessary.

[a_ahmed]

I got the uprights finally in my hands :)

You know what I'm going to do, I'm going to weight all the arms/etc... and post a thread... that should be interesting as no one has done that b4 i think. Of course I dont have other arms to weight but ill weigh the spl parts i have etc...

[Def]

I've got the metal for the first batch, but am still swamped with school, so no real estimates on when things will be getting done. Getting some more metric drill bits soon, so I'll do some test runs on the "hard pieces" and see how it goes.

[a_ahmed]

sounds cool :)

[a_ahmed]

I'm quite anxious for you to finish this as my car is back on road and I want to fix it up before any track days... but I know you'll be busy with school and all :-/

None the less I'll bump the thread with something i just found on rhdjapan in the s13/180sx section

Priced at:

Was CAD 34.58 Our Price:CAD 32.71 Shipped to Canada Express Air Mail http://www.rhdjapan.com/home/images/spacer.gifWas CAD 37.74 Our Price:CAD 35.86 Shipped to CanadaSurface

http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm/Cusco-Pillow-Ball-Upper-Mount-Nut-50724

http://www.rhdjapan.com/images/product/50724/Image/Normal/Image1.jpg

http://www.rhdjapan.com/images/product/50724/Image/Normal/Image2.jpg

[a_ahmed]

Then there's this and they are making a killing if anyone even buys this lol 400 bux my ass from nippon hardcore jdm yo!

http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm/Ikeya-Formula-Rear-Knuckle-Pillow-Bush-19255

http://www.rhdjapan.com/images/product/19255/Image/Normal/Image1.jpg

http://www.rhdjapan.com/images/product/19255/Image/Normal/Image2.jpg

http://www.rhdjapan.com/images/product/19255/Image/Normal/Image3.jpg

http://www.rhdjapan.com/images/product/19255/Image/Normal/Image4.jpg

http://www.rhdjapan.com/images/product/19255/Image/Normal/Image5.jpg


You are viewing a Ikeya Formula Rear Knuckle Pillow Bush that are composed of steel for the NON-Hicas Nissan. Specifically the S13, S14, S15, R32 and R33. The items are a direct replacement and excellent upgrade for your worn out rubber items and will result in sharper, more responsive steering. A press will be necessary for proper installation. You can get these as well as many other very fine JDM parts for your car with us at RHDJapan!!
Our Price:CAD 416.52 Shipped to Canada Express Air Mail http://www.rhdjapan.com/home/images/spacer.gifOur Price:CAD 411.58 Shipped to CanadaSurface

[turtl631]

Def's going to help me upgrade my bush!

[Def]

I ordered the misalignment bushings last night. Going to order the bearings soon.


40 hrs of work + 30 hrs of class a week is kicking my ass and then some though. It will be at least a few weeks before I get anything substantial. I do plan on doing some strength testing on the bearing mount stuff in the meantime though.

[Def]

Got my quick change toolpost and parting blades for doing some more stuff on the lathe, and I've proven that you can machine what I was told is "too thin a wall thickness" on a tube. So I'm mostly setup to start making a few test runs.

Just need to order the Aurora bearings, which will probably happen Tuesday(Mondays suck my balls - 7 AM to 10 PM straight).

[turtl631]

and I've proven that you can machine what I was told is "too thin a wall thickness" on a tube


Def's running ****

[a_ahmed]

AWESOME,

So far personally, ive paid and waiting on richard for the coilovers, im waiting on Kuah at SPL to ship the rest of my arms, the new RUCAs are backordered for 2-3 more weeks due to overwhelming orders :(, my new wheels and tires are almost ready (wheels ready, tires not yet), my azc bbk front and rear are suppose to be shipped but the guy didnt give me tracking number yet (kinda not fast customer service hmm), got the subframe, just purchased HLSD (have to pay and wait n guy to ship with EMS from Japan), all thats then left is your sphericals hehe :)

*poke poke poke poke*

Gona be a fun summer God willing :) So I hope and reckon that the car will be all track ready for end of may :P *whips Def to work :P*

How is your school stuff btw? It's finishing soon? It's good to hear you're getting it going finally :)

[Def]

School sucks. I'm done with this semester in 9 days... It'll be a rough 9 days though... I've got about 15 hrs of work/class to do today - bleh.

I've been working on it pretty steadily, making sure my designs are feasible, and it looks like everything is good. The real magic won't happen until I get my semester break though.

[90kacoupe]

if i end up with the job that im interviewing for thursday i will want u to add me to the list for a set of these. i have a s14 subframe im gonna build up and when its all ready im gonna drop it in. so that the down time of my car wont be very long.

[Def]

I whipped out some sleeves for the upright pivots last night, and earlier I modified a few spacer bushings. Just need to order some bearings and mount them in and give some tests, but I anticipate everything going just fine.

Just going to take some time to whip out a few. I anticipate being able to meet the demand when school isn't kicking my arse though. Just sit out there by the lathe with a few beers and rock out with aluminum chips up in my hair.

[a_ahmed]

hey its been a month since we last discussed this thread lol.. ur gona use 3 piece aurora spherical bearings right? The teflon lined ones?

[Def]

They're Aurora spherical bearings. I think they're 2 piece(not including the liner, or that it matters), and I don't agree with what I've heard on this forum about "3 piece" bearings being better. They're just made differently than a 2 piece bearing. Mil-Spec bearings are 2 pieces if it matters(again it doesn't).

[Wiisass]

There's no point to a 3-piece spherical bearing. You only need 2 pieces (not counting the liner) and then you make the 3rd to put it in.

3-piece rod ends are better. They allow you to run a different race and body material which can give a better bearing surface and have a stronger body. But 3-piece rod ends aren't always needed, it really depends on application, that's why there are so many different options.

[SOneThreeCoupe]

By the way, I'm interested.

I have a pair of Z32 uprights that whisper to me as I sleep. All they whisper is "spherical."

[Def]

There's no point to a 3-piece spherical bearing. You only need 2 pieces (not counting the liner) and then you make the 3rd to put it in.

3-piece rod ends are better. They allow you to run a different race and body material which can give a better bearing surface and have a stronger body. But 3-piece rod ends aren't always needed, it really depends on application, that's why there are so many different options.

The teflon liner is what takes the pounding in any rod end/spherical bearing used on a car(at least I'd hope), so a harder race isn't really the determining factor. Typically 3 piece rod ends are used to get the cost down and use a cheaper(typically plate low carbon steel) material for the body. You can get perfectly good performance with a 2 piece end - the price just goes up a bit.

All the $$$$$$ rod ends and spherical bearings I see at work are 2 piece.

[spool_sample]

By the way, I'm interested.

I have a pair of Z32 uprights that whisper to me as I sleep. All they whisper is "spherical."

+1

My uprights do the same thing.

[Def]

Well, if I ever get some time during business hours I'm going to order enough bearings for a first run this week.

I need to figure out a way to drill the size hole I need in bar stock, or just get some tubing from McMaster-Carr. A 1-7/16" drill bit is pretty big and it doesn't take much to get that thing a chattering.

[a_ahmed]

ooooh first run :) me like!

[Def]

BTW - first run will likely be just the smaller bearings(toe, camber, traction bearings), with the shock mounts coming later.

[Epstein]

BTW - first run will likely be just the smaller bearings(toe, camber, traction bearings), with the shock mounts coming later.

Sounds good! You've got me on the list, right?

[Def]

I guess I should create said list...

I'll post some pics of the stuff I've got so far tonight.

[a_ahmed]

I am on the list too ;) But thats obvious as I send you love letters about spherical bearings :P

[Wiisass]

Well, if I ever get some time during business hours I'm going to order enough bearings for a first run this week.

I need to figure out a way to drill the size hole I need in bar stock, or just get some tubing from McMaster-Carr. A 1-7/16" drill bit is pretty big and it doesn't take much to get that thing a chattering.

A 1-7/16" drill bit? Def, I don't think you're getting enough sleep. They have much better tools for making a hole that size. And I wouldn't order tubing with that ID from anywhere for something like this. The ID of the tube would have to be very precise to match the OD of the bearing and whether it's going to be a press fit or a clearance fit and depending on how you're going to retain it.

PS. I can get Aurora stuff at a better price than you'll find anywhere else, if you're interested.

[Def]

Wish I had known that before I placed an order for them earlier today.

As for making a 1-7/16" hole - I agree there are better tools, but no way I'm paying the price they command. I think I can step it up.

I'm machining everything to its final dimension - I'm not a complete n00b.

That said, bearing mount has a pretty wide tolerance depending on the type used.

[a_ahmed]

*gives def a tap on the shoulders and encouragment* w00t w00t keep it up :) I'm watching this thread with eagle eyes :)

[turtl631]

Chill out- projects like this take a while to get right!

[a_ahmed]

Turtle you talking to me? Nah, I'm just excited and encouraging him lol. Take his time it's fine. I'm still waiting on Richard to get the housings/etc.. done/ordered too. Just encouraging him, I wish I had half his knowledge/skills in fabricating stuff, its really cool. Respect.

[Def]

Shiny time bishes!

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3366/bearings001zb2.jpg

[turtl631]

Now I know you went to Tech! I will stalkz0r you!


Oh yea, nice work too. Dear China, thank you for cheap machinery so poor 240 owners can have sphericals in their uprights.

[a_ahmed]

shaSHING BISHES!!! LOL HOT HOT HOT

[Epstein]

Go Jackets. When were you there? I got out in '02.

[Def]

'05 for me. Did some interning and got screwed by the ME department on classes my senior year, so I was on the 5 year plan.

[Def]

Well, I made some more spherical bearing parts today to get my mind off Financial Accounting for a bit.

The good news - got enough to do almost 2 full sets of the smaller bearings.

The bad news - with 1/2" bolts. I have been able to make a few 0.500" OD 0.473" ID bushings to allow the use of the stock 12mm bolts, but it's hard to be consistent, and it's honestly a major PITA because some end up having to be scrapped due to the thin wall thickness allowing the tube to distort.

The plus side is that it ensures a fresh bolt with no corrosion, which lots of older S13s look like they need anyway at this point. A set of $9 Harbor Freight Step bits will make short work of stepping up the hole size in the upright end of whatever arms you're using(stock or aftermarket). I understand some people might be hesitant with this, but it should be a very simple modification. The holes in the stock arms are slightly oversized anyway, since it looks like they expected it to be a friction hold.

I should still be able to retain the stock bolts on the shock mounts, even though it'd be easier to use 1/2" bolts there as well.

So what say ye NRR community?

[turtl631]

Sounds fine. If making them work with stock bolts is that much of a pain, might as well just do them like this. Is there a chance you could buy nice grade 8 bolts in bulk and distribute them with the bearing kits? Finding decent grade 8 bolts is always a pain for me, although now that I think about it, finding standard sizes like 1/2" shouldn't be bad. It's the metric grade 8 stuff that's unobtainium.

[Def]

They'll come with the correctly sized grade 8 nuts and bolts. They should even use the same 19mm socket that the stock nuts and bolts need.

[turtl631]

Sweet, no complaints here then. I already have those HF step drills. Awesome!

[Epstein]

Yeah, 1/2" is fine. Bring it on!

[Def]

So apparently Aurora spherical bearings have really gone up in price recently. I ordered some and the guy tried to sneak in a 50%+ price increase on me without mentioning anything. I cancelled, but he eventually worked out a price just above his cost on the bearings. Still a bit more than it would have been according to his published prices, but I'm tired of waiting to get this show on the road.

I will probably switch the future ones over to QA1 sphericals, which I feel are "99% as good" for now a good bit less than the Auroras cost. It's what SPL uses right? :)

[a_ahmed]

Rotating shinings go bling bling, rotate rotate, thump thump :P

Aurora stuff is used on the space shuttle right? I find it funny how we put these shiny things on rusted S cars :P If only s chassis cars were as shiny and not rust prone :-/

Speaking of that how many cars are there that are aluminum... NSX? What else?... Kind of funny but many years back Ford made a taurus out of full aluminum as a test for structural integrity, performance and fuel savings. It was like 1000lbs lighter or something I forget. Unfortunately it never went into production :-/

The thing with Japanese steel what I heard is that it is not galvanized steel if I'm not mistaken?... hence lighter and more rust prone... :( Or that's just some myth people spread...

[Epstein]

Whose S-chassis are rusting? Mine is rust free with no exceptions.

Audi's are aluminum. Where's that pic of 2 engineers (who are statistically weaklings) lifting a bare A8 chassis?

[a_ahmed]

lol, all s-chassis cars are prone to cancer :(

Mine has a few spots here and there, I will eventually be redoing the whole chassis (either the one i have or another i will get as a replacement)

You are lucky if you don't have much rust...

[Def]

I don't have any rust on my chassis.

I've got a few bearings finished, but I want to install them in my uprights and do a load test on them being axially loaded(should never happen in actual use, but I'm curious).

[turtl631]

My car has no rust either. My last S14 didn't either...first one had a bit though. Inner races of subframe bushings were rust-welded to the subframe studs. Not fun to get off for someone doing their first car project ever, with super basic tools, in a dorm parking lot.

Def, how do you test the axial load rating? Put weights on there until it fails, or do you have a (much cooler) non-ghetto way to do it?

[Def]

No, it's pretty much as ghetto as you can think of... a few weights.. and if that's good... smack it with a hammer. So far I think I've got the bearing mount thing down after a few different approaches, and it holds up to the hardest I can bang on it with a hammer. Should be more than sufficient for a part that sees no axial load. :D

Also did the machining operations for the whole first order of misalignment bushings for the camber/toe/traction bearings. Just need to make some more sleeves, order some bolts, then they'll be good to go... so soon.

[a_ahmed]

Nice, that's good to hear bro...

[a_ahmed]

Been a while, what's going on? Any updates?

[Def]

I've got a set going to the beta tester early next week to get his impressions in actual usage since I don't have Z32 compatible rear shocks yet.

I think I'm going to outsource one part of them to a machine shop to get them out faster.

Last time I checked it was about 4 people interested in a set at $300 for the camber/toe/traction rod links. I'm a bit nervous in going to a machine shop and ordering essentially double what the current demand is...

Can I get another confirmation from everybody who is interested in those links at $300?


If I can ever get done with this round of mods on my car I'll start working on the shock mount bearings as well.

[a_ahmed]

Oh thats good to hear man. Well, lets get a list going then...


List of those who want the whole set of def's sphericals:
-a_ahmed
-Def
-AceInHole
-turtl631
-McCoy
-Epstein
and put yourself on the list

[Def]

Once it looks like I won't be stuck with a lot of expensive bits of aluminum - I can have the inserts in about a month or so from the shop, then I'll have more than enough to fill the first order.

[McCoy]

Def - you can put me on the list for the full setup.

[AceInHole]

I should also be on the list for a full setup. Need it ASAP actually.

[turtl631]

Me too, friction blows!

[a_ahmed]

I've updated the list of us :)

[turtl631]

You left out McCoy

[a_ahmed]

done .

[Epstein]

and me too. full set.

[Def]

I'll put the order in ASAP - probably tomorrow. I'll have enough for everybody to get the camber/toe/traction links done.

[AceInHole]

Let me know if you need a down or full payment. I'm waiting on those and some LCAs.... also need tender springs and a swaybar. I just want to be done changing my suspension around >.<

[a_ahmed]

Oh yeah Richard if I recall said wants to make some LCAs, me want some too...

[AceInHole]

Someone is supposedly already in the process of making mine :P


Supposedly.....

[Def]

Smaller bearing inserts are in the process of being made, expect something in about a month. In the mean time, I'm going to be making sure I have enough of the "other stuff," and start in on the shock mounts(lots of machining in these).

[Umai Kakudo]

I just got a set of the SPL/NAMS bearings for the rear lower control arms in the mail. My OEM bushings are way to far gone and need to be replaced ASAP. SPL had to order them in from Japan as they didn't have any in stock nor do the sell many of them.

They look good except the tolerances on the spherical bearings are so tight I cannot rotate them at all by hand either radially or axially. I have to put a 3/4" socket extension just to get enough leverage to move the bearing up and down on the sides.

I pressed one of the bearings out and there was no identifying markings on the bearing whatsoever.

I hope they loosen up and actually rotate when bolted down otherwise they'll just rotate around the aluminum spacer/reducer bushings and wear the aluminum them out. I'll ask SPL about it prior to installing and see what they say.

Did you get any of the Aurora bearings in Def? Can you rotate them by hand?

Once I get some calipers I'll take some measurements and pictures and post them up.

[Def]

Yes, I have lots of Aurora bearings and the breakaway torque is easily achieved by hand. Typically cheap spherical bearings are excessively tight. Sometimes they loosen up with usage, sometimes they really don't.

How are the bearings retained in the NAMS sleeves if you don't mind me asking?

[a_ahmed]

Updates?

[McCoy]

Smaller bearing inserts are in the process of being made, expect something in about a month.

Updates?
Not sure what he has to update us on?

[a_ahmed]

Like when we can buy them lol :(

[Def]

No updates from the machine shop. I'll have some info as it gets closer to their delivery date.

I'd like to get a few pieces of the shock mount made, but honestly that's a lot of money up front for essentially "very low" profit. The risk is just too great given that I'm not making much money on these since I'm using high quality bearings vs. cheap junk.

[Umai Kakudo]

Yes, I have lots of Aurora bearings and the breakaway torque is easily achieved by hand. Typically cheap spherical bearings are excessively tight. Sometimes they loosen up with usage, sometimes they really don't.

How are the bearings retained in the NAMS sleeves if you don't mind me asking?

That is what I thought. SPL replied and said it is normal for the bearing to be tight and that it would loosen up. In my experience better quality bearings rotate very smoothly so I might try and find some replacements if they don't 'break in' well enough.

The NAMS sleeves have a machined step on one side and a internal groove for a c-clip on the other. Still working on getting pictures and dimensions and it will be a few weeks before I can install them.

[Def]

There might be another reason for them being so tight - I bet they're using a press fit, which is NOT how spherical bearings like to be installed. Their outer race is not the strongest thing, so it will yield with a load on it, and cause the liner to bind up on the ball.

[Def]

BTW - I've been trying to do more work on these things, but it's been getting over 100 deg F a few times lately(yes, actually over 100 deg for you northern times that call your 80 deg days "100 degrees" haha), and my garage will hit about 110-120 deg F depending on the time of day. After almost having a heat stroke one day I kind of lost enthusiasm for the lathe... at least for the meantime.

Still have the inserts on order. I requested an update and didn't get anything from them, so I'll try again.

[McCoy]

reminds me of why I like my garage being under the house and surounded by earth on 3 sides... nice and cool on the hottest of days :)

[turtl631]

Shut up Def, I'm sure it was just a heat index of 100*F. Sack up.


Inserts from e-machineshop?

[Def]

Son... M3 said it was 102 deg F driving home yesterday. Your pasty ass would burn to a crisp in 5.8 femtoseconds if you were in Tejas.

Yep, from e-machineshop.com. They were about 40% the price of a few local machine shops with just a slightly longer lead time.

[turtl631]

Damn, what really did me in was the femtosecond reference.

[a_ahmed]

Any updates on this? Still awaiting, this is one of the last bits for the suspension other than richard's koni 8611 setup for me... which is taking longer to ohehe

[AceInHole]

I'm just hoping these will be ready before next season :P I'd rather have them work well, than be rushed out and require more modding just to get going.

[Def]

The machine shop gives an estimated range of pieces, so I'll have to wait to give a final count down. They're on schedule to be delivered July 7th according to the latest update. They pushed the date back a bit... so I guess they're a bit heavy on the estimate.

The "beta tester" has had a set for a few weeks now... hopefully we can get a before/after experience from him very soon.



One potential problem I've found - the shock mount holes in both of my uprights were slightly out of round. I'm thinking due to the construction of the bushing(forces are only acting on about 2/3s of the bushing), so it slightly warps things over time. I had two bearings made up, and both were within 0.001" OD of each other, but one went in with a little effort, the other would heavily bind on two faces on the other upright that was a bit more oval. I had to end up taking about 0.003-0.004" to get the thing in there. The holes in the upright might also not be the same diameter all the way through the upright. Might just be me, but 4 uprights I've measured have all had a bit more variance in the diameter on the shock mount hole than I'd like.

I've been mulling over what to do about it. I'd hate to sell stuff that doesn't install easily. To that effect, I also paid extra to get the machining tolerances down to 0.001" on all dimensions.

[RBbugBITme]

Hmmmm I would expect the tolerances on the cast upright to be quite large anyways. Honestly, the right way to do this would be to drill and ream each hole to the bearings OD. Of course no one is going to do all that.

[a_ahmed]

Maybe we could send our z32 uprights to you so you can install them all correctly? That's a possibility...

[RBbugBITme]

If that's a poke at me, there is nothing wrong with my statement. You can't expect to have custom parts made to +/- .001" tolerance and expect a great fit into all of the 10+ year old cast uprights out there. I'm not knocking what he's doing, just saying there are more steps to doing it right that many people won't want to go through.

[Def]

The holes in the uprights are machined after they are cast. The stuff on the smaller pivots seems spot on and all exactly the same, so I'm thinking it's a stress thing that has caused the deformation of the shock mount hole.

Still waiting to hear back from the beta tester to get his thoughts on the install/functionality.



I can get the shock mount insert machined at a machine shop and hole +/- 0.001" tolerance, but at that size it's going to be $$$. It still won't really help with the install if the upright is out of round. The other option is to go undersized slightly or a light press fit and have people use bearing mount to hold it in the upright as extra insurance.

Regardless, the smaller pivots(camber, toe, traction) should be here in a little bit.

[a_ahmed]

me anxiously awaiting for that update :) Keep it up bro...

[AceInHole]

Just did the rear shock install, and it looks like bearings for the rear Q45 shock mount will be necessary for S14 owners. I'm not sure how different the Q45 and z32 mounts are, but the S13 and z32 apparently have more forward lean to the shock, while the S14 is more upright. This tweaks the rubber bushing, and it takes a bit more force to get it into position. I'm running it right now as is, so it's do-able with the stock bushing in back, but I'd definitely like to get a spherical bearing back there asap.

Pics to come when I stop forgetting my camera at my parent's place (where my car is).

Def: shoot me a PM if you need a beta tester that'll have it installed and running within a week (have access to a press if you want to see how press fit works). I'm guessing it won't be ready for next weekend (Toledo Pro), but I still have Finger Lakes (end of July) and Topeka (September) to prep for.

[Invisible_Saddle]

i thought the guys at spl parts had made this a viable option already. Look under there site. Sure its @ $149 a pair but the work and headache has been done already.
http://www.splparts.com/main4/parts/NissanShared/Suspension/Multilink/SPLShockMountBushing.jpg

[Def]

Those are $300/pair.

[Def]

I got the sleeves in yesterday. They look very nice. I'll start assembling some and let everybody know what the deal is.

It looks like I have less -8 bearings than I thought, so I'm going to make another order for those.


As for the shock mounts, I've thought about it, and I'd like to do a more serious design that I would definitely have to give out to a machine shop. It would employ a snap ring and probably bearing mount as well to eliminate slop while keeping away from a press fit(press fit on a spherical bearing = bad for breakaway torque).


It just takes a large order to get the press reasonable. So was everybody also interested in the shock mount bearing as well? Pricing will still be in the $175/pair range with Aurora -12 bearings.

[McCoy]

I'll probably pass on the shock mount, the other 3 I'm still wanting.

[AceInHole]

I need the rear shock bearings ASAP. I'm down for a pair if they're released sometime soon.

[Longfellow]

What about making it out of acetel(delrin), and press that into a metal shell, and have a small steel journal type bearing inside of the acetel. Then use graphite to lube it so it rotates properly? (for the spindle bushings)

I dont know much on how much differnt style bushings impact suspension. But I was thinking about making a set for the front control arms. I was thinking something similar would work for the spindle bushings as well.

[Def]

You cannot use delrin for the FLCA or any rear spindle bushings. They are not a purely axial bushing(i.e. they don't just allow rotation, but also misalingment).

[a_ahmed]

make it happens soon bro make it happen soon... i am really anxious to get it all :)

[Def]

I haven't forgotten about you guys. Got the inserts in, they look good. Putting together sets as I get time around trying to get my car ready for the track(safety mods) and school(statistics is lame).

Did a strength test on the new inserts and it doesn't look like the smoother finish affects the holding capacity of the bearing mount(i.e. it's still strong as ballz).


I believe I'm going to go to a more complicated rear shock mount design since there is a lot of interest in it, and I might as well go crazy with the design if I'm getting them made. I'll keep everybody updated on that, just waiting for a little more info from an interested party.

[a_ahmed]

yay, keep us updated, i want to get these in time for richard's coilovers and spl's arms... thats all i need to get my car going :(... ****... ****en summer :(

[a_ahmed]

Any updates?

[Def]

The smaller bearings should be going out soon. I've been working my ass off trying to finish up my rollbar, get harnesses mounted, and do a few more odds and ends before a track event I have this weekend.

Getting the shock mount bearings done at a machine shop might have fallen through. Price is just a little high to get a very short run done... I'm trying to work something out though.

[a_ahmed]

Anything yet?

[Def]

Patience young padawan.


Something will be happening soon. A lot of the wait is ordering parts, then waiting a week... then needing something else... ordering parts, waiting a week. Unfortunately a side effect of only having a little bit of time here and there to work on these things.

[SPiG]

Is the list still open? I am going to want a complete set. I wasn't planning on getting too much suspension done until after the car ran again, but would rather get in early on a batch then have to wait.

[a_ahmed]

Depends on what Def says... I would like to see some fruit results so I can pay and get too just as Ace/PJ did lol.. :D

[Def]

Is the list still open? I am going to want a complete set. I wasn't planning on getting too much suspension done until after the car ran again, but would rather get in early on a batch then have to wait.

Yes, there will be a few sets left over.

I guess there is enough interest in the rear shock mount RSSB, so I'm going to have those component made for me since I'm about to have next to no time.

So if anybody else wants in on this, let me know. It is very cost prohibitive to get just a few sets done, so if it's only a few people the price might rise a bit. I'm going to absorb some of that and get a few extra made, but after that it's anybody guess as to whether I'll feel like making another run of them.

Right now those who haven't gotten theirs and are interested are:

-a_ahmed (full set)
-Epstein (full set)
-McCoy(no rear shock mount)
-SPiG (full set)


Hmm... is that really it? Anybody else?

[McCoy]

If Def has more of the full set of RSSB's available, don't hesitate to get them... they are worth it.

I just recieved mine and hope to have them installed by next week if all possible.

What I got...

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/RSSB_01.jpg

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/RSSB_02.jpg

[a_ahmed]

wth i asked for it :-/ I thought he said he's not like interested as it's not his full time job unelss there's too many people asking... :-/ Of course I want them!... Def respond to me in PM lol...

[McCoy]

Calm down ahmed, he was referring mostly to the hand lathing of the shock mount bearing setup... you were wanting the full package, remember.

Also, not to nit pick, I was the first person to respond to his thread showing interest in this setup...

[Epstein]

Those look great! Can't wait to get my set. I've given up on the shock mounts temporarily so that I can get these guys faster. I've been playing with the stock and Nismo rubber bushings and the force required to rotate them makes me a sad panda.

[McCoy]

Those look great! Can't wait to get my set. I've given up on the shock mounts temporarily so that I can get these guys faster.
Exactly... I might get the shock mounts later, but this is what I was really after.

[ckcadavona]

Only thing holding me back is class restrictions. Otherwise I would be all over these Def. I hope you'll be capable of making these when I decide to move up in class.

[Def]

wth i asked for it :-/ I thought he said he's not like interested as it's not his full time job unelss there's too many people asking... :-/ Of course I want them!... Def respond to me in PM lol...

ahmed, I've explained the situation to you numerous times before. I will have some more control arm RSSBs like the ones in McCoy's pics soon(soon meaning somewhere in the few week timeframe, not days, waiting on bearings now).

The shock mount bearings are on hold because there is not as much interest(as a group) to justify most likely losing a substantial sum of money getting a few pairs machined up now. I can make some by hand, it will just not happen anytime soon.

Honestly, I'm a bit dismayed after a 15 hour day of work and school to come on here and see you acting like I'm "screwing you" yet again for lack of a better term. Please stop. I'll inform you on the availability of the bearings when I can find the time to get more prepared. It's not something I'm ignoring, it just takes time to get everything together and get them packaged and sent out. I spend quite a bit of time double and triple checking dimensions and build quality because I want the final product to be a problem-free, high quality piece of hardware. This takes time, and I'm a one man operation here that has other obligations in my professional life. Please be patient and take this into account.


To the other people that are interested, I may or may not keep doing this after the last sets in this run are gone. There is more than enough to satisfy the orders of those who said they wanted a set of control arm RSSBs back when I made this thread. For those that are just expressing interest, I'll let you know how it pans out after everybody on the initial list gets theirs.

McCoy - thanks for the pics. I've had some questions about the bolts, so I'll explain a bit since now people get up close pics of just the hardware. The coating is termed "ultra-corrosion resistant", and they seem to hold up to the name from the quick salt water test I did. It's a bit dull on the appearance side of things, but seems to walk the walk. They're Grade 8 of course. The nuts are the same tooling size as stock at 19mm, and are mechanically deformed lock nuts just like the stockers. No instructions are provided since it's pretty much a "press them in with the chamfer leading the way" affair.

[paNX2K&SE-R]

Hi Def, I sent you a PM. :)

[ManoNegra]

Long time Zilvia member (and FA before that), just started coming here.
I work at a machine shop alongside a close friend named Mike (shop manager) who
also happens to be a 240 guy.
We are always talking about making 240 parts and one of the things we've
discussed was spherical bearings.
I just stumbled upon this thread and sent it over to Mike.
I'll have him contact you Def if you don't mind.

[2Fass240us]

I work at a machine shop alongside a close friend named Mike (shop manager) who also happens to be a 240 guy.
Don't sell out, Jacob!

Just kidding, sell out. This is a good solution, cheaper than SPL, and deserves more backing.

[a_ahmed]

more more more more more!

I need all this too... the sooner the better... lets help each other....

[Def]

Long time Zilvia member (and FA before that), just started coming here.
I work at a machine shop alongside a close friend named Mike (shop manager) who
also happens to be a 240 guy.
We are always talking about making 240 parts and one of the things we've
discussed was spherical bearings.
I just stumbled upon this thread and sent it over to Mike.
I'll have him contact you Def if you don't mind.

I got the PM from Mike. I'll get in touch with him soon and see if we can't work something out.


On a more immediate note, check is in the mail for additional Aurora bearings for the control arm RSSBs. So in a few weeks there should be some more ready to go out to people as time permits me to assemble/quality control them.

[ManoNegra]

Don't sell out, Jacob!

Just kidding, sell out. This is a good solution, cheaper than SPL, and deserves more backing.

It's Juan :mad: :p
Did you ever get that white hatch of yours running?
That build was/is one of my favorite threads of FA.

I got the PM from Mike. I'll get in touch with him soon and see if we can't work something out.


Cool
We actually had a set of Z32 uprights from a rear brake conversion I did years ago.
Too bad we couldn't find them when we looked for them yesterday.
We did see a stripped Z32 that still had them on last week at the junkyard.
Hope they still are there.

[Longfellow]

Wheres the sign up for the upright bushings? I would like to buy a set when ever possible.

[2Fass240us]

Did you ever get that white hatch of yours running?
That build was/is one of my favorite threads of FA.
Yeah...I've done a half-dozen autocrosses and 3 HPDE's in it since I got it running (properly) in June last year. It now has a half-cage, race seats & harnesses, oil cooler/filter setup, et al.

I haven't updated my FreshAlloy thread as much as on other boards simply because there didn't seem like enough interest. Maybe it's time I pick it up again.

[Epstein]

I haven't updated my FreshAlloy thread as much as on other boards simply because there didn't seem like enough interest. Maybe it's time I pick it up again.

There are other boards besides NRR and FA? :confused:

Hey Longfellow, just PM Def directly.

[ManoNegra]

Yeah...I've done a half-dozen autocrosses and 3 HPDE's in it since I got it running (properly) in June last year. It now has a half-cage, race seats & harnesses, oil cooler/filter setup, et al.

I haven't updated my FreshAlloy thread as much as on other boards simply because there didn't seem like enough interest. Maybe it's time I pick it up again.

Nice. I learned quite a bit from it.

There are other boards besides NRR and FA? :confused:


Zilvia... (runs for cover)

Well, just got back from the junkyard.
Good news: uprights (and ebrakes, diff) are still there.
Bad news: they're pretty seized and we didn't take enough tools.
We may take another swing at it later today on the afternoon.

[Def]

Wheres the sign up for the upright bushings? I would like to buy a set when ever possible.

I'll have a few sets of the control arm RSSBs ready to go right after I receive the bearings(so a few weeks). Not sure if all have been spoken for, I'd have to go back over my list.

[Longfellow]

Thats cool, if there is an opening put me down for a set. If not no worries.

[Def]

There will almost surely be some more made, might just take a while to get another run going.

[98koukile]

If by a while you mean winter or after thats good news for me

[Def]

Well, I'd eventually like to have enough on hand to fill any orders that would be coming up. But yes, it will probably take at a while to get things rolling again after these next few sets run out.

[Def]

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/3183/bearings1010001sap8.jpg

Have a few sets curing right now(bearing mount - the green stuff you see). I'll be contacting people as I get all the other pieces machined to ship them out.

Be thankful guys, I sacrificed my Friday night to get these things making their adhesive bonds over night!

[a_ahmed]

The bling has been sent, make it come fast :D

By the way, ace is running toe ones too right? I remember long time ago people including Kuah on his 300zx race car saying they ran all of them except the toe which they either left as stock or used nismo ones.

[Def]

I got a request to keep the status updated in the first post of this thread, so I'll continue to keep that up as well as making a post to bump it when something significant happens.

[a_ahmed]

yo respond to me question :D

Also yes keep me updated... i hope its all cured safe and ready soon..

[Def]

I think it was oil contamination - it's very obvious when they don't bond properly, and it happened to all of them. So I redid all of them.

Yes, the control arm RSSB set includes a toe bearing. No idea why you'd not want to run one there, as that's probably the biggest benefit by controlling the toe change under cornering loads. The bores for all the stock bushings are the same even though the toe bushing is different(more rubber, it's downright squishy).

[a_ahmed]

Yeah, I was just concerned as I remember even PJ a long time ago talking about this on freshalloy and Kuah and some other guys stating the same thing (who made their own or bought Kuah's/SPL's overpriced stuff haha). Even Kuah said he ran all sphericals except toe.

I guess Ace could chime in as he was your test subject to begin with and he said something along these lines a long long time ago on freshalloy before ever even touching them :P :) Honestly yeah I doubt a bushing would be in any situation superior to a spherical bearing but I'm not sure what their concern was. I'll be happy to run NO bushings in the whole of the rear suspension hehe.

Your next project will have to be front and rear LCAs for me and PJ :)

[Def]

I have no idea what you could even say is an issue with the toe bearing. If it gets into a binding condition, well, something else is seriously wrong because these offer more articulation than taking ALL the rubber out of the stock bushing and rotating the sleeve.

[a_ahmed]

This is the thread I was talking about:

http://forums2.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=175646

Just about a year ago.

[Epstein]

The only way I could see a binding situation that would be worse with all sphericals is if the arms start to fight eachother length-wise. From what I've felt moving rubber bushing'd suspensions around, this will depend on traction rod length relative to the RUCA. It shouldn't be that hard to get it figured out. Besides, the lower control arm inners are still rubber.

[Def]

Once you get the spherical bearings you'll see what I'm talking about. If you're making the arms move in such a way that you bind the RSSB, then you would have NEVER been able to even move the spindle to that location with rubber bushings. I calculated it out a while ago, I think it was around 9 degrees of misalignment angle with them installed. No rubber bushing is going to move that much.

[Epstein]

Uh holy cr*p. Thse RSSB's are awesome! All of the vagueness in the rear is gone, and I've gained compliance over bumps. Didn't notice any noise at all either. I ran the suspension through it's range by hand (sway on, struts off) and it didn't start getting tight until way into the fender at about 2" of tire tuck, or 2.5" of compression on my setup. It's also a LOT easier to move the suspension from static. Before with all Nismo bushings and the 3 heim arms I'd have to get a pry bar out to deflect the suspension (sway on, strut off). Now I can move it by hand with mild force even though I'm working against the sway and RLCA rubber bushings.

Thanks for doing this, Def. Your work is appreciated!

[a_ahmed]

^Nice to hear!

Man mine are still on their way... the tracking number you gave me says tracking information currently unavailable..what was their shipping estimate? You sent it like monday or tuesday last week right. How many days they said it takes?

[RBbugBITme]

All of the vagueness in the rear is gone, and I've gained compliance over bumps.

Just an anal tidbit... compliance is the measure of how much a part will deflect under load, you removed compliance.

[Def]

^Nice to hear!

Man mine are still on their way... the tracking number you gave me says tracking information currently unavailable..what was their shipping estimate? You sent it like monday or tuesday last week right. How many days they said it takes?

I shipped them last Tuesday. The quoted time is 3-5 days of delivery time, but customs is not included in that and out of everybody's control.

I imagine they've been in customs for a while.

[Def]

Uh holy cr*p. Thse RSSB's are awesome! All of the vagueness in the rear is gone, and I've gained compliance over bumps. Didn't notice any noise at all either. I ran the suspension through it's range by hand (sway on, struts off) and it didn't start getting tight until way into the fender at about 2" of tire tuck, or 2.5" of compression on my setup. It's also a LOT easier to move the suspension from static. Before with all Nismo bushings and the 3 heim arms I'd have to get a pry bar out to deflect the suspension (sway on, strut off). Now I can move it by hand with mild force even though I'm working against the sway and RLCA rubber bushings.

Thanks for doing this, Def. Your work is appreciated!

Glad you are enjoying them.

I truly believe these are a "must have" on an S chassis/Z32 when getting serious about going fast. Probably just as important as good dampers.

[Def]

Just an anal tidbit... compliance is the measure of how much a part will deflect under load, you removed compliance.

Technically yes when talking about a bearing/bushing, but when talking about the suspension as a whole compliance means an ability to absorb imperfections in the road without disturbing the chassis. I think Epstein's usage of the word was correct given the context.

[Epstein]

Well that's not what I really meant. I mean that the bearings allows the suspension to move up and down more freely over bumps now (because of the reduced/eliminated rotational resistance of the bushing). Where the suspension used to skip over bumps, it follows the road more. I guess the "part" in this scenario is the sus assembly itself.

edit: yeah what Def said.

Someone help me with the correct term, but it really amazes me how much force it takes to rotate one of these Nissan OEM (or Nismo) bushings. When I changed from tightening all the arms at droop to tightening them at ride height, the feel from the rear changed noticeably. Now that I've basically eliminated this rotational bind/force, apart from the bearing's stiction, it feels like the suspension is finally being able to work.

[Def]

I think friction pretty much covers it, although the factory bushings do tend to act like rotational springs with a few tenths of a degree of rotation before almost completely binding up. So things don't work well, especially when you have 5-8 of them in each rear suspension.

[Tower240sx]

Hey guys i went and got a couple of the com-8's and the com-8t's

The amount of "stiction" in the teflon lined (ptfe) com-8t's is significantly greater than in the non lined bearings, (aurora';s site claims 10lbs are required to initiate movement in -T's)
I'm not entirely sure where the idea came from for lining the bearings with teflon but i see no real advantage, and really only disadvantages to using the teflon lined bearings for this application, It will require slightly more work to install as a zirc fitting must be installed along with each bearing, which requires drilling and tapping, not a big deal in Z32 Alum carriers.

I've had early battle version RUCA's on my s13 for 4 years daily driven to the extent of 60,000 miles in 4 years, the bearings are non lined type w/zirc fitting and they get grease once a year, never replaced a bearing never had a complaint, are they still like new, um no, but the teflon would have worn away by now anyway and i'd have an unlubricated linerless bearing back there.

Thoughts questions concerns?
Mike

[Def]

The breakaway torque varies in the bearings, but this last set I got was very low, just a few inch pounds. The Teflon lined bearings will break in quickly with usage and essentially be maintenance free until they wear out.

They will also have lower friction than all but a freshly greased regular -8 bearing.

[Tower240sx]

Seeing the way they mold the teflon in the bearing makes me worry about how long it will stay in there, the stuff scrapes away readily.

Anyone have a set that's gone through 10,000 miles?

I'd be interested.

Mike

[Def]

I don't believe it's 100% teflon. It's definitely a darker color than pure teflon, and it feels much harder with the ultra-scientific "poke it with a screwdriver" method.

[Epstein]

I've got some BV RUCAs that I'm pretty sure are teflon and definitely don't have zerk fittings. I've had them for nearly 4 years and 4-5k miles and they're still tight enough to hold the arm out parallel to the ground unsupported from the heim end.

[Tower240sx]

I've had them for nearly 4 years and 4-5k miles and they're still tight enough to hold the arm out parallel to the ground unsupported from the heim end.

That to me says the teflon bits don't work the joint should have as little stiction as possible.

An engineer stopped by today to look at the internals of an early Porsche "tiptronic" trans, we are going to lighten the internals with Ti parts. While he was here i bent his ear a bit as he had previously worked as a consultant for several F1 teams, He said F1 used PTFE lined bearings as the net weight per corner could be lower than zirc fitting equipped arms. He said they got away from them as they induced too much non-compliance to angular changes, now they just use bonded CF "joints" as they can better account for the energy required to deflect the CF.

So if our goal is ultimate compliance I would say the non-lined joints are our solution, if our goal is a worry free suspension that doesn't need greasing at the cost of increased stiction than PTFE lined it is.

[Ruff Ryder 6]

Well whatever we choose, i'd like to be in for a set Def. Let me know when they'll be available.

[a_ahmed]

are we talking about the next set or the shock mount spherical bearing lol.. me has got mine :D

[Ruff Ryder 6]

i don't know, the last few posts went off on a tangent. whatever he makes, i wanna buy. for all the mounting points in the upright.

[Def]

That to me says the teflon bits don't work the joint should have as little stiction as possible.

An engineer stopped by today to look at the internals of an early Porsche "tiptronic" trans, we are going to lighten the internals with Ti parts. While he was here i bent his ear a bit as he had previously worked as a consultant for several F1 teams, He said F1 used PTFE lined bearings as the net weight per corner could be lower than zirc fitting equipped arms. He said they got away from them as they induced too much non-compliance to angular changes, now they just use bonded CF "joints" as they can better account for the energy required to deflect the CF.

So if our goal is ultimate compliance I would say the non-lined joints are our solution, if our goal is a worry free suspension that doesn't need greasing at the cost of increased stiction than PTFE lined it is.

The PTFE lined stuff has different amounts of breakaway torque and axial/radial freeplay. I'm surprised the F1 guy had an issue with them, as that's ALL that's used on military aircraft, and even large bearings can have a pretty low breakaway torque of a few in-lbs if the radial freeplay is very low(can't really feel it with the bare hand). Of course, you can get that freeplay down, it just takes more breakaway torque.

This relationship between freeplay and breakaway torque continues as a bearing "wears-in", with the freeplay slowly going up over time, and the breakaway torque going down.

The breakaway torque for the consumer grade stuff has quite a bit of variability in it, but Aurora is best in that area IMO. This last set of COM-8T's I got is butter smooth, with breakaway torque probably measured in fractions of an inch pound with no freeplay. The last set wasn't bad either, but the breakaway torque was a bit higher.

IMO - it's a non-issue really when you're talking about pretty long lever arms that are almost nearing a foot on average. The moment created by the bearing is inconsequential at that point whether it's 1 in-Lb or 10 in-Lb. It's still a few orders of magnitudes lower than the moment created by the crappy stock rubber bushings.

[Def]

Well whatever we choose, i'd like to be in for a set Def. Let me know when they'll be available.

There are a few people who have spoken up before. If you're one of them, remind me, but as it is it'll take me a bit to make some more and get to some more people on the list.

School kicked up a gear recently, and I've been blessed with a group full of idiots in Marketing, so I'm pulling more than my fair share of slack. So free time per week is scarce.

I'll let everybody know when some more are ready.

[a_ahmed]

just let me know when shock mounts will be ready ;)

[Def]

I'm working with Tower Mfg on getting some parts done, so if that takes off the availability of things will increase by quite a bit.

[a_ahmed]

Do give hints and clues about the LCAs and roll center adjustability a thought too :P If it works out hehehe... cause spl wants an arm a leg and a kidney donation for them.. and all that jazz.

[Def]

Not happening, sorry.

[a_ahmed]

DOH!


*simpson voice*

:P

[turtl631]

Lol, you never even hinted that you'd make LCAs Def. Not sure what's going on here...


I found some info on Aurora's site about PTFE lined bearings:

Teflon Liner: Teflon is a trademark held by Dupont for their material chemically known as PTFE. A teflon liner is a strip of PTFE/fabric composite bonded to the raceway of the part. It provides a self-lubricating surface for the ball to ride on. It should not be confused with virgin PTFE, which has very low compressive strength. A proper liner relies on the fabric component for load bearing capacity, and the PTFE component for lubricity.

[veilside180sx]

Def's not doing LCA's, and has never said he would.

[98koukile]

This may or may not have been mentioned in this thread, these bearing only work for z32 uprights? or are my s14 uprights the same dimensions minus the shock mount difference?

[Def]

As far as I can tell they're the same bushings, but I would strongly recommend going with Z32 uprights. They're 5-6 lbs lighter per side, and the stock bushings don't rust in the bores like I've heard happens on stock uprights, which makes them very hard to remove.

[a_ahmed]

My upright was a piece of titanic history hehe. Or as you would say, requiring tetanus vaccination.

[98koukile]

Well that blows my 3000gt bilstein rears idea right out of the water then

[ecugrad]

Well that blows my 3000gt bilstein rears idea right out of the water then

Get the Z32 ones

[98koukile]

Don't you then need them revalved and have that piece taken out?

[Ruff Ryder 6]

Any update on this? I think it's exam week or maybe that is next week (not in school anymore) but maybe Def will have more time. Not sure if he had any available right now or not but hopefully soon, if he gets time. No rush, just asking...

[Def]

It's finals week right now much to my dismay. I'll be done with the semester tomorrow at 1 PM, so after I recover from some celebratory drinking I plan on getting things back underway and get these few sets of control arm RSSBs I have out(need to do some machining and assembling).

I've been in contact with Tower Mfg on getting more pieces done to facility really pushing these things out in larger volumes, but we have been discussing minor design changes and the like. Nothing firm on that yet, but maybe after the holidays that will start kicking into gear.

I do have a few sets of control arm RSSBs that should be ready sometime during the holidays.

[turtl631]

My upright was a piece of titanic history hehe. Or as you would say, requiring tetanus vaccination.

Clostridia tetani is a gram positive anaerobic

oh.

finals are over.


RE: Bilsteins- are the Z32 ones long enough to have some droop travel on an S14? Is this the situation where Wisass mentioned removing the spacer to get more droop travel?

[Def]

I have 3 more sets of control arm RSSBs that are ready. Just need to get back home and assemble and ship them out.

Ruff Ryder 6 is on the list. Anybody else? I looked back through my PMs and had a few maybes. So if you want in, let me know.

BTW, if anybody missed it many pages ago, these require drilling the holes on the spindle side of your 3 arms out to 1/2". This is only .5 mm bigger, so not a big deal. That's the only part that isn't bolt-on.

[Scores240]

How much $ are these running now? These are just for the toe,camber,traction points on the rear uprights right. Anything with RLCA / FLCA bearings?

[Def]

These are 6 bearings for the toe, camber, and traction arm pivots on Z32 rear uprights. Price is $300+$15 shipping in the lower 48 states.

No RLCA/FLCA bearings at this time, as I think a complete arm redesign with rod ends would be the best solution there.

[Scores240]

Wonder if DSG would ever produce their FLCA or RLCAs like the ones on their 240rs maxi race car for public sale. If they were the ones that actually made them?

[a_ahmed]

If I recall well, those arms were made by SPL for Billy. Correct me if I'm wrong. But yes all the stuff he has would be nice to be made for us too :D

[SoSideways]

I thought Bill sat down and welded all that up...?

Try and find his original thread on FA, I know he documented making those arms.

[bill@dentsport]

I thought Bill sat down and welded all that up...?

Try and find his original thread on FA, I know he documented making those arms.

I made them but haven't made any others yet. Kuah made the 5/8" monoball pins. The arms are very time consuming and would be expensive to reproduce unless there was a good amount of interest. Then I could make a mini production line for the metal parts:)

[racepar1]

No RLCA/FLCA bearings at this time, as I think a complete arm redesign with rod ends would be the best solution there.

I plan on just bracing the arms and making some delrin bushings for the rears and putting some bearings in the front. It would be so cheap and easy to do that. The only bummer is no roll center adjustment, but I have found solutions to raise the roll center using the stock arms. I'll probably just get the moonface racing stuff, although it is rather expensive for some balljoints with longer shanks. As I remember it came out to about $300/pair of balljoints from them. Still waaaayyyyyyyy cheaper than buying LCA's and waaaayyyyyyyy less of a hassle then trying to build them.

[Def]

I plan on just bracing the arms and making some delrin bushings for the rears and putting some bearings in the front. It would be so cheap and easy to do that. The only bummer is no roll center adjustment, but I have found solutions to raise the roll center using the stock arms. I'll probably just get the moonface racing stuff, although it is rather expensive for some balljoints with longer shanks. As I remember it came out to about $300/pair of balljoints from them. Still waaaayyyyyyyy cheaper than buying LCA's and waaaayyyyyyyy less of a hassle then trying to build them.

I made delrin bushings for my own arms, but honestly, paying a machine shop to make them would probably be just as expensive as having them weld on a plate/nut and using a 1/2" rod end with spacers and using 1/2" bolts there. Or 5/8" rod ends with a reducer.