Question about Koni Set Up

[WishIHadaSilvia]

Hello,

I've been reading on here as much as I can. I noticed that someone on here was going to use an old D2 coilover set up to house some Koni 86XX shocks and do a set up that way.

Basically what I'm trying to figure out is if that is possible on my JIC FLA2s. I like the fact that they're duel height adjustable, but from what I have read, and felt, the shocks are garbage.

Ideally I'd like to replace the shocks with some Koni 8610s and get some swift springs and run 8 or 9k springs all around. Would I be able to just slip the JIC shock out and replace it with a koni? I am assuming it is NOT that simple.

I apologize for sounding so inexperienced in this topic, but it is because I am inexperience and am trying to figure out what my options are. I just really don't want to give up my duel height adjustability, and I've already got the JICs so if it is simple/possible I want to look into it.

The set up will be mainly used for the street with occasional auto-x, HPDE, track days, and drifting.

Thanks,
Stephen

[veilside180sx]

Measure the OD of the shock/strut and the length of the strut.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

I haven't had time to take my suspension off and measure it. I called JIC but I'm skeptical as to how correct the information is as the guy sounded very unsure. He said the fronts are between 45 and 50mm around and about 9.5 inches long. I believe the 45mm diameter, I'm not sure I believe the 9.5 inch long part as they look to be longer then that, especially since I have them lowered all the way and my car is not slammed. He didn't give me any dimensions for the rear shocks. I'm just going to have to measure them myself.

[veilside180sx]

Yeah, I only trust measurements taken myself, or someone i know.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

I got some extremely rough measurements today while under the car and it looks like the 9.5 inches up front for length could very well be true. I'm going to have to take the suspension off the car and preferably out of the casings to know the exact measurements.

Assuming that they are that much shorter then they need to be will that be a problem or can the bottom just be cut out and an extension be welded onto the bottom? I guess I should also ask that question with the assumption the diameter is between 45 and 50mm, so weld a whole tube into it that is narrower and longer? Would that be safe/acceptable if welded properly?

[veilside180sx]

A lot of people section and lengthen tubing (very common in old Z's), but not a practice I personally like to do.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

I was thinking of cutting the bottom out of the current housing and putting a tube that is the correct size through it (ideally with a wall thickness big enough to make up the difference in diameter) and weld it in. That doesn't seem like it would be too risky. You say you wouldn't recommend it, but is that the same type of process you're talking about?

[veilside180sx]

Yes that's what i was talking about. If you have someone do you just have to make sure that it is cut at an angle to insure you get proper penetration.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

What kind of piping do you use for your strut housing? I was talking to my potential welders and they told me aluminum is probably what they'd recommend using. Do you buy yours locally or online? I am just trying to figure out price wise what would be the best way to order the piping.

[veilside180sx]

You'll want to use the same material as what the existing is. Which JIC's should be DOM steel tubing, with a zinc coating. I purchase all of mine locally.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

I apologize for asking what seem to me to be stupid questions. I hope you aren't getting sick of me yet, haha. Here is a copy of what I posted on Zilvia in the GC/Koni thread that hasn't been posted in for over a month:

Koni 8611's are awesome. They're pretty much as good as it gets untill Moton/ Ohlins/ Koni 28's.

Spring perches set here:
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/PirateS14/suspensions/DSC_6276.jpg

Sit here:
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/Panda/DSC_4371.jpg

(Crappy pic:)
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/PirateS14/DSC_6284.jpg


I'll try to get a better pic later... but long hours at work = I get home when it's dark :(


I am curious as to how much lower you can move that spring and still have it be safe for the strut - ie give it enough travel room. If you could go another 1/2 to 1 inch if not more then I am extremely excited. I was going to attempt to get some inserts to go into my JIC FLA2 coilovers to fit koni shocks into it and run some GCs so I can have dual height adjustability. Just for the simple fact I am concerned as to how low it will go because my predominate use for the car is daily driving and I care how it looks. At the same time I want to run a competent suspension set up for track days/etc.


Or is something like this possible - it would be nice if it can go lower on the spring and this as well.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c51/95KA-Turbo/GCkoni.jpg

I'm not sure how much room is left underneath the shock - IE the control arm.



I know the koni set up is not meant to slam a car, but basically I am wondering if it is possible, I would imagine even if the koni/GC set up was lower then it "should" be at for optimum performance it would still be a hell of a lot better then any of the off the shelf JDM coilovers.

Please let me know what you think about that, I hope it is possible. If it is I know you were saying you could run the 8610s w/ Z32 uprights, it is possible to run those in the rear with OEM uprights?

[ckcadavona]

Depending on the following I think a custom housing/Koni setup can lower a 240 too much. Keep in mind that PJ's struts above are ran in conjunction with a 285/30/18.

S13 or S14?
wheel tire size?
alignment?
spring length?
...

I think you'd be better off selling you're current setup and starting over. You might end up with some hacked JIC's that might not be what you wanted.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

My street set up is a 17X9 -2 all around with a 215/45. My track set up is a 17X9 +0 with a 235/45 - which will be a 235/40 next time I get tires. So I just want to be sure I can get it low enough for my street set up since I'll need the space with my track setup - raising it up is pretty easy though. My old set up was 17X8 -10 and 17X9 +3 so if it was this low I'd be happy (it's a 215/40 up front and a 235/45 in the back):

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c51/95KA-Turbo/12-2-078.jpg

[veilside180sx]

I can move the flange up, but I think it's unnecessary.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

You think it is unnecessary because you think it can go that low with out it or because you think going that low defeats the point of the set up?

I will most likely be contacting you in the next few weeks about getting some 8610s and some shock housings.

[Def]

I haven't put mine on yet, but with how short the 8611-1257(IIRC) struts are and where Richard "the almighty housing creator" ordained the placement of the spindle flange - I'd say you can go pretty low on these things and still have good travel.

Look at how much spring travel AceInHole has on those 600ish lb/in springs before he runs out of room. If you really want to "slam" your car, you can run stiff springs like that and have it on the weeds. In fact, with these housings I'm betting you start hitting the top of the fender with your tire before you run out of strut travel - and while not a bad thing, it shows you that the struts/housings aren't limiting your options on ride height really - it's the chassis.


That said... why do you want to get an expensive setup to "slam" your car? Your rear looks like a good height in that pic, the front is at least 0.5" too low. I've never been a fan of how a car feels or how it looks with that front raked setup...

[SoSideways]

Yeah, front rake is bad.... I don't like it.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

That set up was not as raked as it looks in that particular picture. The car was on a slant in the picture and the front tires are much smaller then the rear (I was using free tires).

I want to run this suspension set up because I'm attempting to transform my car from a DD to a track car. I will have to gradually do this, so I'd like a set up that I can do what I want height wise while my car is still predominately a street car.

My current set up is not raked at all, I'm running the same size all around (this is pre spacer):

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c51/95KA-Turbo/VIR6.jpg

[AceInHole]

Where my springs are now, I still occasionally rub the fender tubs with 235/45/R18's up front (winter tires off the G). I still have PLENTY of room to go on the low side.... so I don't think a flange replacement is really necessary. If I have time this week maybe I'll slam my car as a demo of how low these things go.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

That would be awesome if you'd be willing to do that. I am sure it would get more people to order strut housings from Veilside - assuming he needs more business (that last batch was huge, haha).

[AceInHole]

Yeah he's gonna kill me when I post pics on zilvia and nico and direct hundreds of PMs to him.

I just hope my HF jack fits under the car when it's that low....

[WishIHadaSilvia]

You should give him a few weeks before you post the pictures on Zilvia, that way he can amass the materials. Haha, that and I want to get an order in before the huge line forms. I've been trying to read up on as much information as I could on different set ups (this is the first non off-shelf set up I read about online and I wanted to search around before I made a decision). I found some used Ohlins on Up Garage for reallllllllly cheap but I decided against those because they're going to be more suspension then I'll ever use and I know for a fact they will not go as low as I want, and I am 100% sure they'll need to be rebuilt. I have yet to hear back from the Ohlins guy and with you guys on here responding so quickly I am liking the fan/user support much better.

[BigOdom1]

im curious as to what rates we all have if enough people have this setup

[veilside180sx]

Each setup is close, but different...I'll let them post them up.=)

[Def]

I'm still not really understanding the fascination with how low a suspension can go. Travel is good, and these housings have good travel. When you have your car in "street mode" your limiting factor is going to be keeping the tires off the chassis, which is really a function of how stiff a spring you can stand. The good thing is that the Koni 86 series are good dampers, so they will make a stiffer spring seem much nicer than on some crap JDM "hexa-dodecahedron-triple-threaded-super-eleventy-way-adjustment-spec" dampers.


Suspension height should be about performance and going fast - not about impressing the local kids in the parking lots.

Case in point, last time I happened to cruise by a ricer meet while tuning my car. After hearing a few 16 year olds laugh about my laptop in the car saying I was trying to look like Paul Walker(ok, that crap was kinda funny - I admit.. haha), a bunch of EVO guys asked me when I was going to "give my car a drop." My front S13 pignose lip is about 2.5" off the ground up front - so I just laughed a bit and told them I was saving up for some "drop springs."

[SoSideways]

Bah, my chuki S13 SE lip is about 2.5" off the ground too :)

To be honest, having my car this low is awesome. The car seems to have grip everywhere, and under braking the car doesn't seem nervous, even though I have Z32 fronts, stock S13 rears, and the stock S13 7/8" brake M/C, which puts way too much braking up front. I guess that just tells me that by having my car this low, that I'm not at all transferring a lot of weight under braking, which can upset the traction in the rear, so it's a good thing.

Haven't really driven the car at the track yet, so I cannot give you guys a quantitative comparison or data analysis of whether or not there are merits to having the car this low or not.

PS - My front wheels do rub on the fender well area way before I will run out of shock travel, even though I'm on Stance GR+ coilovers.

The rear, well, my toe rods will hit the cups that hold the subframe collars/bushings in place before I run out of shock travel.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

I don't particularly have a fascination with how low suspension set ups can go, I just want to be able to lower my car enough so my wheels fit they way I want them to. Running a 17X9 -2 with 215/45s looks retarded if the fender is not on the tire (I can understand the look I want for my car might not be what other people like on here - and I definitely know it is not "functional" but it is a street set up).

That being said I don't want a ****-balls suspension set up because I do enjoy driving my car - I am trying to get everything together for some HPDEs this year and a good suspension is definitely a must.

I just want the best of both worlds, it sounds like they'll go plenty low for my needs, so I'm just waiting for my finances to go through.


I've also beat the ever living crap out of my fender wells with a BFH and would only have to do a little more to run the 235/40s I'd run with my track wheels, I know for a fact a 245/45 will fit with a little more hammering so if I wasn't happy with the 235s I could always go with some 255/40s or something. In other words I'm not worried about the body limiting how low I can go.

[Def]

It doesn't matter how much you hammer, you run the car that low and have "streetable" spring rates on track - then hit a bump midcorner and you will likely get the tire up on the wheel well itself. I'm not talking about the fender seam lip up there.

You can run 245/40-17s on stock front fenders easy enough... 255/40-17s should be doable if you're careful with offset. On rears you can likely go to 315s with a pull.

[AceInHole]

He could probably run a bit lower than my car (with the smaller tires) and still have enough travel.

One theory I'd like to test this year: you want to run as functionally low as possible (emphasis on functional: minimal tire rubbing). Lower CG should in theory outhandle some bias towards roll center (although mine will be fixed with LCA's anyways) on transitional stuff. The rest you can make up for with camber/ caster.

[Def]

Getting on curbs and stuff on the track tends to use up travel. Plus getting on the bump stops hard at 100 mph is different than doing it at 40 mph.

I think a "track setup" will likely end up about 0.5" or so higher than an autocross setup for that reason.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

That is what I'm talking about, I'd have no problem moving everything up an inch if I had to went I did go to track days. I'd probably have to anyway because of the tire size difference alone.

[BigOdom1]

the problem there is that you need an alignment when you change ride hieght

[WishIHadaSilvia]

All I'd have to worry about is changing my toe, it isn't that difficult to do, my friend dials in his car before he goes to races to make sure nothing is off from the time before - especially if there were any off track incidents.

[AceInHole]

Getting on curbs and stuff on the track tends to use up travel. Plus getting on the bump stops hard at 100 mph is different than doing it at 40 mph.

I think a "track setup" will likely end up about 0.5" or so higher than an autocross setup for that reason.

Meh, I'd offset it by stiffening things up :p

Curbs I can see as being pretty rough on things, though.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

I wanted to run 9k/8k springs but in order to go lower am I going to have to run 10k/9k springs? I know the ride quality will be way different from my 7k/6k current set up.

[Def]

9/8k or about 500/450 should be stiff enough to run pretty low. I might bump the fronts up to 550 or run a big swaybar up front. Making the front of these cars have a lot of roll stiffness seems to make them quick - just like E36/E46 BMWs. E46 DTM cars run 42mm front swaybars to get the roll stiffness "way up there."

[veilside180sx]

This thread made me make a sticky for a quick and easy kg/mm to lb/in conversions.=)

[a_ahmed]

"hexa-dodecahedron-triple-threaded-super-eleventy-way-adjustment-spec" dampers.

sig'd :P

[WishIHadaSilvia]

I really appreciate all the info I'm getting out of this thread! I just wasn't sure if running 10k/550 springs would be super harsh or not. I know from what I've heard these shocks are so awesome that it isn't even as harsh as say...my 7k springs on my crappy JIC shocks. I like the idea of running 550/500 springs I wanted to keep the rates about the same as I like the car to have a good deal of oversteer - and I'll be drifting this car as well as doing grip events.

Also, what size spring is ideal? I'm thinking a 7" spring, but I'm not really sure what the benefits of running a bigger spring would be other then less droop - but I want the car low so there is going to be droop.

[McCoy]

10K springs on the Koni's up front feels better than 6K springs on the Silkroads... daily driving that is.

[a_ahmed]

Man, i just feel like getting this and not going s15 subframe this summer lol... but i want to get z32/q45 rear spindles... if someone could hook me up that'd be cool...

[veilside180sx]

Epstein said he has a spare set in his garage.

[a_ahmed]

me want (0_0)

PM sent

[Epstein]

Epstein said he has a spare set in his garage.

Def owns them now.

[a_ahmed]

Sniff :'(

[McCoy]

no love for a_ahmed ;)

[Def]

Def owns them now.

I believe you could more accurately be saying, "Def is pwning a_ahmed right now."

:D

[a_ahmed]

I don't need your gay love loll

I shall await my turn to get them :P Missed my chance though :( Shoulda been quicker.

wanted: z32 rear aluminum spindles :)

If I can't get the s15 subframe this summer at least i want the z32 spindles and koni8611 setup :)

[veilside180sx]

Post a WTB on Zilvia and FA...I'm sure you will get responses.

[Def]

I think an S15 rear subframe would be a good thing to try out too. Kinda the last big suspension thing I think I'd do.

[WishIHadaSilvia]

So I know you can run yellows in the back to save some money on the set up. Do yellows come in their own housings or something? From pictures I've seen I assume that is the case.

A guy on zilvia was talking about running eclipse rear struts because they're valved "better" - which I assume should read "stiffer". Can anyone fill me in on that...also most Konis I've seen are pretty large shocks, would running a S13 rear be WAY too short on a S14? I couldn't find the shock lengths anywhere, it would be a good way to go lower and not have to worry about messing the shock up.

Also, 8k is about the limit on them right? 450lb ground controls should be fine on yellows?

[McCoy]

The koni yellows are a bolt on type... here are mine with GC hardware on them...

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_rear_issue_01.jpg

[WishIHadaSilvia]

Can you use stock upper mounts on them w/ GCs still?


It appears to be a pretty tall shock, so if the S13 shock were like 2 inches lower it wouldn't be a bad thing.

[spool_sample]

Can you use stock upper mounts on them w/ GCs still?


It appears to be a pretty tall shock, so if the S13 shock were like 2 inches lower it wouldn't be a bad thing.

IIRC, S13 rear shocks are a LOT more than 2 inches shorter and don't really work in the rear of an S14.

[McCoy]

Can you use stock upper mounts on them w/ GCs still?
yes, I'm sure you can... I've never done it though.


It appears to be a pretty tall shock, so if the S13 shock were like 2 inches lower it wouldn't be a bad thing.

This is the S13 shock. Don't be fooled, the GC sleeve is sitting 2" above the top of the shock body on my setup...

[WishIHadaSilvia]

Do you by chance know the height of the S13 koni yellow? I am more just curious then anything at this point.

[McCoy]

I don't own them anymore...

[Your Mom]

there on my car..... haha

height of the shock body?

[veilside180sx]

They were actually almost identical length to the Silk Road rears which are 13.5" (with Monty's GC collar removed)

The rear for any of those setups have plenty of travel so there isn't anything to worry about.