GC tophat setup

[turtl631]

So, I got some Eibach springs and GC sleeves for all 4 corners on ebay, now I just need the top hat components. It looks like PJ and Monty did this a little differently. Who do I contact at GC to talk about getting the parts I need? And more importantly..what are they? Most coilovers have the tophat on the shaft so the upper bearing is fully stressed. Do the GC setups transmit the spring forces to the upper mount itself, or to the bearing via the shaft?

[Def]

Well when you do call them, make sure you don't even mention you're looking for the tophat for a part of a kit.

I just called and whoever answered the phone(sounded like Jay from the couple of times I've called before) was a total asshole when I asked for a tophat for an S13 Nissan kit.

His only response, with no explanation was, "I sell that in a kit. If you want it, buy the kit."

I tried to explain to him I had a Ground Control setup here, and just needed the tophats because they were "lost," but I got the whole - "I sell that in a kit" line again. I asked him where he might direct me to purchase them since I still wanted to buy the tophats, and his mumbled response was, "maybe pegasusracing." Yea, I already know they don't have anything like that, but thanks for the try - I like the effort there buddy...


Honestly, I've never had someone talk down to me so much when calling to do business with them. Maybe I'm just used to more professional behavior in my everyday work, and he's just used to talking to random ricers so he thinks that's acceptable behavior, but it doesn't really fly in my book.

I can't believe someone would turn away an easy sale for a trival part. Hell, I was probably going to buy their overpriced torrington bearings just to have things shipped from one place, but he lost that opportunity with his snide remarks.


I'm really more irked now that I still feel like I need to buy the damn parts and I have to deal with such a douchenozzle who can't engineer his way out of a paperbag... I've had negative experiences with the guys at Ground Control before hand, but I never imagined I'd be talked down to when I try to buy parts from them and give them money...

[McCoy]

I have some tophats laying around... two sets to be exact. One set is flat on the top, identical to the set I have in the rear of my car right now and the other set is probably for a front setup, it has a slight cone shape all the way to the top and is flat right where the shaft would go through at.

I'll post some pictures tonight.

Def - I feel your frustration, but also see why they try not to sell individual parts to protect themselves from a lawsuit due to stupidity. I use to buy individual parts from them on occasion up to last year and for some reason that have stopped doing that :(. The last time I tried to get a few parts, the guy gave me the 5th degree over the phone and declined my request for parts... I eventually went through a friend that deals directly with GC and got the parts through him, but even that took an extra month to get the parts.

[veilside180sx]

They are very finicky/wary of selling partial kits. (didn't used to be this way) Jay does not typically answer the phone, so I am surprised he was. This has all come about since all of the ebay/chinese knockoffs that claim to be their equipment and massive failure rate of them.

The only way I've been able to order partial things, is have someone that has dealt with them for a long time do it for me. Such as Scott Higashi (where Monty got his stuff).

colemanracing.com, truechoice.com, proparts, etc can get top hats for you. The latter two would more than likely be able to order the top hats from ground control independant of the kit.

[Def]

I cannot really understand why you would turn away a customer who is willing to buy something from you... Makes me think it'd be easy to compete with them in that market if that's their idea of "customer service."

I'm honestly wondering now why a flat 0.375-0.500" thick circular 6061 plate with a 14mm hole in it wouldn't do the exact same job. I could put a little bevel on it with a hand grinder if that was really a big deal...

[vw_nissan]

I don't really think customer service is on top of the list for people in the tuning industry. They build their reputation by developing products to win races, so it kind of leads them to think that as long as the products are being recognized, they could care less about customer relationships. Because in the end, you are all going to go back to them anyways.

I am not saying this is right, because I hate it too. To be honest, I think customer service is one of the biggest sector that the US needs to improve on.

So...how did you end up getting the top hat from GC?

[McCoy]

So...how did you end up getting the top hat from GC?
If this was directed at me, it's because I made many purchases from them before for misc setups and just had spare stuff laying around. Heck, I had a new B13 GC setup in my garage for 5 years :o

[vw_nissan]

If this was directed at me, it's because I made many purchases from them before for misc setups and just had spare stuff laying around. Heck, I had a new B13 GC setup in my garage for 5 years :o

Thanks. It was directly to anyone who could answer that...:)

I wonder if I could disassemble my K-sport and use the top hat there

[turtl631]

Well, that sucks, I was under the impression I could easily order the other parts I still need from them. Maybe I'll try to get them through Truechoice since they'll be rebuilding one of my TC Kline Konis anyways.

[Def]

Thanks. It was directly to anyone who could answer that...:)

I wonder if I could disassemble my K-sport and use the top hat there

I was wondering this too since I also have K-Sports. I'm thinking they probably won't work since the K-Sport/D2 etc. springs are 60mm ID, and the ERS commonly used are 64mm ID(2.5"). So there will likely be only a bit of the spring on the hat.

[turtl631]

I'm trying to get a mental image of how this will all work. Since the camber plate isn't directly perpendicular to the shock shaft, the spring won't be either, so how will a flat top hat work? Is only a small portion of the top hat going to actually contact the camber plate? On JDM coilovers the top hat is fixed to the shaft, which avoids the spring misalingment issue but then puts all that loading on the spherical bearing in the plate. Am I missing something obvious here?

[McCoy]

Here's one of my old cusco setups that I ran on the Sentra at one point... the tophat is flat, but does have a torrington bearing in it. The shaft O.D. matched up with the I.D. of the tophat. The hat stayed centered on the shaft basically.

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/500/medium/cusco_pic.jpg

The one set of tophats I have are identical to the one I used in the rear of my 240, here are some pics from the install.

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/Koni_GC_parts.jpg

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_rear_issue_02.jpg

[turtl631]

So you're supporting all of the loads on the spherical bearing then. Is your front setup identical to your rear setup in that regard?

[McCoy]

With the Cusco plates all the load went through the bearing, they have a 2nd revision of this one (Richard has it) where the load is distributed onto the plate and not the bearing.

My fronts use a rubber tophat from GC (from the G20 kit), you can see them in the picture above along with the torrington bearings that I got from them.

Here is what my front looks like, the Torrington bearing is between the Eibach spring and the perch.

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_front_complete.jpg

[ckcadavona]

I concur with Def on Ground Control's customer service/support. It's funny how things tend to work them selves out which in turn led me to my current Ground Control setup/"kit".

[vw_nissan]

With the Cusco plates all the load went through the bearing, they have a 2nd revision of this one (Richard has it) where the load is distributed onto the plate and not the bearing.

My fronts use a rubber tophat from GC (from the G20 kit), you can see them in the picture above along with the torrington bearings that I got from them.

Here is what my front looks like, the Torrington bearing is between the Eibach spring and the perch.

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/koni_front_complete.jpg

With your rubber tophat resting against the camber plate, wouldn't that prevent the pillow ball to move and tilt the plate around the shaft?

Sorry about my ignorance.

[McCoy]

With your rubber tophat resting against the camber plate, wouldn't that prevent the pillow ball to move and tilt the plate around the shaft?

Sorry about my ignorance.
The movement, I assume your talking about when turning the steering wheel, is all done at the torrington bearing between the spring and the adjustable perch. The bearing is tight in the tophat, especially when you consider how tight the top nut is.

[ckcadavona]

The movement, I assume your talking about when turning the steering wheel, is all done at the torrington bearing between the spring and the adjustable perch. The bearing is tight in the tophat, especially when you consider how tight the top nut is.

I'm not sure how much you've driven on your current setup but how often do you hear or feal your springs turning and popping? The reason I ask is because with my currnet GC camber/caster plates I hear that sound quiet frequently. Do you have any issues keeping that bottom torrington clean? What type of grease if any do you use on it?

[McCoy]

I'm not sure how much you've driven on your current setup but how often do you hear or feal your springs turning and popping? The reason I ask is because with my currnet GC camber/caster plates I hear that sound quiet frequently. Do you have any issues keeping that bottom torrington clean? What type of grease if any do you use on it?

I know the sound your talking about... I've been running GC setups on various nissans for the past 5 years. I found that using a copper grease... looks kind it has a glitter in it has helped alot in keeping the binding from occuring when turning the steering wheel.

I have only driven the car a few times with the current setup, and I've yet to hear the popping sound. Of course I've only driven the car maybe 10 miles. On the two times that I have pulled the fronts apart, I found dirt getting into the torrington bearing, but it still turned just fine. I might try and find a way to add some type of boot to keep the amount of dirt getting in there, I haven't given it much thought yet though.

[ckcadavona]

Here are a few pictures of a boot I'm using to try and keep the dirt out of the torrington bearing and upper perch area.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r96/ckcadavona/IMG_5353.jpg

The boot combined with the bump stop have kept everything much cleaner.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r96/ckcadavona/IMG_5355.jpg

While taking the rear sway bar off and bleeding my brakes I noticed these marks around the upper mount(right of the spring). Anyone know what these are from?
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r96/ckcadavona/IMG_5352.jpg

[a_ahmed]

That looks like rust? s13 syndrome lol jk

[turtl631]

I finally found something that seems readily available:
http://www.technotoytuning.com/products/upper_hat.html

$50 for a pair of 2.5" upper hats with Torrington bearings. I don't know what the hole diameter, is, but I'm sure I'll be able to deal with that once I get them.

[Def]

That's a pretty good price on those! I wonder what the ID of the hole is. The only thing I see bad is that they don't have a conical washer to distribute load to the torrington bearing.

[veilside180sx]

Not too bad for the price, but agree a conical washer would make it perfect.

That's a pretty good price on those! I wonder what the ID of the hole is. The only thing I see bad is that they don't have a conical washer to distribute load to the torrington bearing.

[turtl631]

Time for somebody to make me some conical washers.

[Def]

No, transfer load evenly across the torrington bearing. As it is now they're loading the inner edge of the upper bearing washer. These things like even pressure across them.

[ecugrad]

I have those on my S14 and so far like them. No serious clunks/binding while turning.

Techo Toy Tuning is great to work with too. I have their camber plates as well.

[turtl631]

Do you have any pics of the assembly? Are you running the hats right against the camber plates?

[ecugrad]

Do you have any pics of the assembly? Are you running the hats right against the camber plates?

Nope, I do not have right now but I have to replace a drivers side wheel bearing next weekend, I'll snap a few pics then.

Yes, I am running them just as they are shown in the pics.

[SoSideways]

Do you guys have pics of said conical washer that is needed for the torrington bearing?

[turtl631]

I sent Def some awesome paint pics when I was trying to figure it out. I don't know if you're worthy though.






And also, the drawings were totally wrong.
Imagine a cone that from the side, is smallest on top (contact w/ spherical bearing) and largest on the bottom (contact w/ torrington on tophat).

[WilloW]

I hate to revive this thread, but where can I get the conical washers for the Techno Toy Tuning top hat? Thank you.

Update: I've just received an email from Strange Engineering in regards to their top hat with the torrington bearing, the difference between these and the Techno Toy Tuning is that these come with the matching conical spacer. They seems willing to let me buy the top hat separately from the whole coil-over kit. I'll let you guys know after I get a chance to call them.

[Ruff Ryder 6]

good keep us posted. i am trying to make sure i have the final parts for my setup. thanks

[WilloW]

I've found this, they come with sealed bearing instead of the torrington bearings.
http://www.vorshlag.com/images/catalog/products/perch_60mm_race_01.jpg
camber plate setup is not much different than ours
http://www.vorshlag.com/images/catalog/products/perch_race_vs_hd_02.jpg
http://www.vorshlag.com/images/catalog/products/camberplates_exploded_14sq_coiloverperch.jpg.
I'm not sure what kind of modifications I'd have to make to fit it to a Cusco/Project mu camber plate, but I'm buying them.

Although these are made for the Bimmer, the Subaru guys has good good things to say about it on their cars. Here's the website -->Vorshlag tophat (http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_8_39&products_id=216), and for $60 with the option of spring ID and bearing I'm not complaining.

[a_ahmed]

that looks sex...

[Def]

Vorshlag typically makes good parts.

I might give these a go. I know BMW makes a sealed bearing of some sort that someone said would help on one of their newer models, but info is hard to find without knowing where to look. Plus some BMW stuff is cheap, other stuff is expensive. I've found bearings usually aren't cheap as a rule.

[AceInHole]

My only gripe with this setup is that it's still relying on spinning the strut body around the piston. I'd like to isolate strut movement to axial (along the shaft) and get rid of any rotational movement. Still, I suppose it's better than nothing....

[Def]

The only option to do that is to put the thrust bearing in the camber plate, but then you have to account for misalignment. Or some GC plates I've seen just flat mount the radial bearing and let the strut take the bending loads(not good).

I think it's almost impossible on these cars to get a low stack height and have the strut shaft/body rotating as one while still allowing the strut angle to change relative to the car.


BTW - PJ, check yo' PMs and give me your thoughts.

[Umai Kakudo]

Since this thread seems to have turned into a camber plate symposium here is some other options I've recently found.

I'm currently looking for a good camber plate setup for the S14 since I have KW V3's without any camber plates in the mail.

I was doing some research to see if KW's camber plates were any good since they like to use their nonstandard 61mm/2.4" ID springs.

It looks like their camber plates used on the Club Sports keep the spring co-axial to the shock but it is hard to tell if they use any additional bearings besides the monoball to allow the top spring seat to rotate freely.

The only decent pictures of the KW camber pates I found are in the manual PDF: http://www.kw-gmbh.de/kw_upload/Einbau/eah35285803.pdf

Then I found these interesting pieces that are used as the spring top hat on the V3 kit for the Mustang.
http://www.focustuning.com/New_mustang_coilover.htm#top%20hat
http://www.focustuning.com/New_images/Coilover---Top-Hat.jpg

If the green mystery material hides some conical bearings that would be sweet. Since KW's stuff is designed to TUV standards it would be a solid option for daily driving.

I really don't like the unsealed nature of the various torrington bearing designs since the car will be used on the street as well.

The Vorshlag design looks good and best of all it is sealed from the elements. The factory 240sx top spring assemblies and many other OEM pieces use similar but smaller OD radial bearings.

I'm calling KW in the morning to get more info on their camber plates and if I end up not liking their setup I'll give the Vorshlag stuff a try.

I'm interested if anyone has come critiques or comments on the KW bits.

[Def]

As for 60mm springs, H&R makes a ton of 60mm ID springs, and so does Eibach for that matter.

[floodo1]

The only option to do that is to put the thrust bearing in the camber plate, but then you have to account for misalignment. Or some GC plates I've seen just flat mount the radial bearing and let the strut take the bending loads(not good).

I think it's almost impossible on these cars to get a low stack height and have the strut shaft/body rotating as one while still allowing the strut angle to change relative to the car.


BTW - PJ, check yo' PMs and give me your thoughts.

I think it would require a custom camber plate, but if you made one you could have a simple design: Use a spherical bearing for articulation, but use with with an ID larger than whatever shock shaft. In the space between the shock shaft and the spherical you use a normal bearing. This keeps the shaft centered within the spherical, and allows the shaft to rotate independently of the spherical. Then use thrust bearings both above and below the spherical. Now you've kept the isolation between the shock shaft nut and the spherical, as well as the tophat and the spehrical. Thus when you turn all the non-spehrical bearings rotate while the spherical stays in place, and just handles the articulation.

The only thing not accounted for here is the spring rotating in relation to the shock body, but you can just use thrust bearing between the spring and the top-hat. Or you could use a thrust bearing between the shock shaft and the tophat.

Pretty sure this covers all the isolations that you want, and would still be very thin since the only thing below the spherical is a thrust bearing, the tophat, and another thrust bearing.

Of course no one makes anything like this :(