Going all out for mechanical grip...

[a_ahmed]

Yeah so I'm kind of pissed when i read/research and find out there's something better than what i just spent money on... and u feel like wth.

I know a 240 is a 240 and not a ferrari/racecar/whatever, but hell thats why most of us get them on the cheap to make them something even better.

I decided to this time not cheap out as i did last time when i rebuilt the car... so now im thinking to myself ill only buy the most proven/regardless of price... so i was slowly getting all the spl arms...

I got everything for the front, and they just came out with beefier z33 inner tie rods :(... but kuah told me they should be fine as they ran the same setup on their z32 and it worked, so im like okay.

But then i thought to myself i should switch to the s14 spindles to get some extra clearance maybe and widen the track?... but then would the SPL TC rods and tie rods work with that?... what about wheel bearings/hubs cause I already had new ones less than a year ago?

Then more importantly what pissed me off is the rear... i thought id buy all spl arms and solid subframe bushings, rebuild subframe... make it all tight and solid but then... i was reading the negative side of the s13 rear suspension (obvious as its more drift-happy than grip-happy).

Either way I have a hicas 17 year old subframe... rusted... with a hicas stopper and worn bushings... worn tie rods i suppose its definetely not stable and the previously installed whiteline subframe inserts snapped out...

So i already bought the spl traction rods and solid alum bushings... i was going to get the camber arms and ultimately lcas front and rear...

I was going to get a non-hicas subframe/sandblast/powdercoat... but its hard to find as most are rotten... so someone told me get an s15 one...

But then that makes me wonder... will the traction rods i bought work?... what parts will be interchangable?... and i can pretty much forget the subframe bushings as there will be need for offset ones... like wth :(

Argh... but i guess thats all part of the game...

I really want to spend money and make an ultimate mechanical grip setup here... not spend over and over again...

I want to get rid of the rear hicas subframe and get the s15 one... but then what is interchangable... can i still use the traction rods i bought?... where can i get the s15 subframe and how much...

[a_ahmed]

well no one seems to be responding.

Hopefully I'll post my findings soon :)

[2Fass240us]

If you cannot still use the traction rods, I'm sure you can find someone to buy them. Hell, I'd give one hundred dorruh for them. :)

I probably need some toe rods though, considering the alignment shop couldn't dial in less toe-in in the rear.

[AceInHole]

Sorry, I was away on business :P

The S14 spindles will work with S13 arms if you replace the ball joints, which should allow you to use your current tie rods. However, I think there's enough adjustment with the z32 arms to use them with the S14 LCA's, or better yet, aftermarket LCA's with inboard heims.

The S13 rear subframe has lots of anti-squat. It also has a solid mounted diff which makes it translate more vibration when running solid bushings. If you can, run an S14 or S15 subframe (is the S15 a direct fit? I know the S14 requires offset bushings). The traction rods should be interchangeable across all of them (mine had a ton of adjustment, so it should work). Shortening the traction rods in any case will help dial some anti-squat out, as it pulls the spindle forward more on bump travel.


Ultimate mechanical grip comes from:
1. Good tires
- Tires connect you to the road. The more they stick, the more you'll turn.

2. Good shocks
- Your tires only do anything if they maintain contact with the road. Dampers control the movement of the tires, which directly affects the amount of time your tires are actually loaded in contact with the road.
- We all know how to get good shocks: Talk to Richard, or find someone who's selling Ohlins/ Motons/ Bilsteins.

3. Proper geometry (camber/ caster/ toe)
- Regardless of your spring or anti-roll rates, your tires need to stay flat, increasing the contact area with the road. If your camber curve allows it, you'll have as much overall grip for a stock car as you would a modified one.

4. Proper spring/ roll rates
- Has a lot to do with harmonics and vibration and such, along with linear algebra and all that junk, but most people think of it in terms of transient response/ control of the chassis. Either way, going to the softer side for spring rates generally results in more traction through steady state cornering.

5. Reduced weight (suspension momentum)
- More weight = more momentum = longer "reaction" time for your suspension. That "reaction" time is time spent not having traction.

6. Reduced suspension bind
- Lets your dampers do more. Bind fights movement in any direction = suck.

[a_ahmed]

Okay after bugging Kuah at SPL quite a bit lol.. he told me for my s13 the following:

For the s15 subframe rear setup with z32 spindle use:

-Offset bushings -- (tougefactory as spl doesnt make them)
-S14 LCA that they offer
-S13 ruca or their upcoming v2 ruca
-S14 toe rods or their v2 toe rods.
-S13 traction rods (already have yay).
-swaybars unsure

For the front with s14 spindles use:
-s14 spindles, s14 5lug hubs
-s13 LCA with s14 balljoint or SPL PRO S13 LCA with S14 shank
(available as special order)
-s13 tc rod (i have)
-tie rod outer/inner z32/z33 setup will work (i have)
-swaybar s13

WOOOHOO :D Good thing i didnt buy anything else but ill have to return or sell the spl pro aluminum solid bushings... ill need to get the touge factory offsets one... i will also need to get the s15 subframe...

So this should give a 10mm track width increase, less anti-squat in rear and more clearance too... plus all pillowball :)

Edit: these are the offset bushings but maan they are expensive:

http://www.tougefactory.com/shop/?shop=1&cat=308&cart=297678&itemid=1026

http://www.tougefactory.com/shop/images/1026.jpg

[veilside180sx]

You could've just as easily relocated one mount on the subframe and ordered the off the shelf stuff.

Once i get a hold of some stock arms/lca/etc I'll be making jigs to make all of that stuff as well.

[AceInHole]

hmm.... the offset bushings could be made pretty easily I'd think. Lathe the outside then drill press or verticle mill the offset hole.

[a_ahmed]

Well to be honest i can not fabricate my own stuff as i do not have the tools... my dad did but he gave them away (GAH!). He used to fabricate tons of stuff... but thats my situation and yeah the bushings they should be damn easy to make but alas what can i do... and in case of the offset ones... well id need to know exact dimensions but shouldn't be really hard to make honestly... and i'm pretty good at modeling/cad/3d studio/etc... if i had a cnc machine or something heh... so will see..

For the time being im just gathering research.

You see what I've done during last summer was make a project outline with parts categories and lists, links, prices, bought/need to buy check offs, etc... all in tables in excel, graphically organized even pictures and comments when u hover over, etc... all calculations of purchases and future purchases... that way i keep track of everything...

So.. this way i want to avoid double spending... i first thought that the stuff i just bought in September/November was to be a waste... but thank God it is not as per kuah's comments :) So this is what i managed to extract out of him :D

[a_ahmed]

This is a z32 alum upright correct what do you think of it, is it in descent shape, the rust i assume is from the iron rusty hub or what? I'm buying it... so just wondering...

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1743/dscf0001qe2.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5899/dscf0002ei7.jpg

[Def]

They look fine, and yes the rust is from the hub. Just clean 'em up a bit and you'll be good to go.

[a_ahmed]

What an ass the guy backed out of the sale... it was going to be 45+35 (80) and he's like oh yeah they're cracked u cant use them lol... :(

Edit:

Here is the pix he sent me saying there's a crack here but his camera is not good what do u think...:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3411/dscf0001dn1.jpg
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/808/dscf0002bp5.jpg

[2Fass240us]

I wouldn't eff with those. The crack will propagate.

[Def]

You would definitely not want to use them if they're cracked!!! Consider yourself lucky for him being honest enough to admit it. That's where the hub bolts on BTW - would not be nice to have that separate from your car...

Speaking of honesty in selling things online... someone just recently sold me some HKS Step1 cams that have bad rust on 3 out of 8 lobes and now won't respond...

[a_ahmed]

^lol that sucks...

Yeah well, i guess you're right, i first thought he was bsing me and just didtn wana sell.. although honestly its not worth more than 80bux hah...

Well he said he has a friend who has another pair.. so ill wait till tomorrow for that for him to take pix :)

The worst online experience for me has been s13 steering column metal bushings from this one company 3 weeks no response after they received email, i filed charges through paypal... they didnt respond, paypal got my money back.

Another thing was this one guy who kept asking for more and more money something that began as 150ish ended up 250ish or so (rear ichiba hubs)...

[turtl631]

I have a guy who still owes me money for a ridiculous transaction on Z32 calipers. I'm never gonna see it, but that won't stop me from hassling him every time he signs onto AIM.

Ahmed, you could just try to source a full Z32 rear spindle/brake/hub assembly. I did that and it ended up being really cost-effective after selling my S14 5 lug rear hubs.

[Def]

Yea, I think Q45s had them too, but no idea if they're the exact same(they look like it). A yard around here has like 4 Q45s with all the rear stuff intact. One has the badass active suspension that has an engine driven pump driving hydraulics to all the shocks and a sweet ass 5x12" oil cooler in the driver's side fenderwell with a fan on it. I almost stole it just for the sweetness of it.

But yea, $80 is about the going rate for them, and if you buy the whole rear assy you can get Z32 rotors/calipers/ebrakes/hubs/uprights for not much more than just the uprights go for.

Honestly, at ~4 lbs per side, it's not a huge difference either. Nice yes, but not huge.

[a_ahmed]

well i want to make it the ultimate s chassis setup :) as i have to be patient/takes time but i want to :)...

also how mcuh should i offer for s14 front spindles...? someone has them asking me to make offer...

[2Fass240us]

A yard around here has like 4 Q45s with all the rear stuff intact. One has the badass active suspension that has an engine driven pump driving hydraulics to all the shocks and a sweet ass 5x12" oil cooler in the driver's side fenderwell with a fan on it. I almost stole it just for the sweetness of it.
Dude, you shoulda gotten it!

While you're at it, pull the motor, work it over, and put it in your S13!!!111!!11one!111eleven!!11!

[Invisible_Saddle]

would relocating suspension pick up points up front be easier to regain some lost 'geometry' from having around 2.5 inches of frame rail clearance??

[a_ahmed]

Man that guy backtracked on me, he never mailed me, been a week what an ass, i bet that thing wasn't even cracked it was just scratched but he took blury pic or something, ah well screw him.. i still will need z32 uprights then... bah...

well i found someone who can hook me up with an s15 subframe... but i cant do it right now.. will have to wait till mid-feb/march... i have some financial stuff to sort out first before any next purchases...

[Wiisass]

If you're going to do the s15 subframe, I would find and buy that before buying any of the other parts. That's going to be the hardest part to find and there's no sense in buying all the other parts and then never being able to get an S15 subframe. Oh, just saw that you found someone who can get it, I would pick it up, find a way.

As for S14 front hubs, why? There's no point to changing them if you're already 5-lug. If you're not 5-lug then I can see the point, but I thought you said you had already bought new hubs for the front. The only thing you would need to get the wider track in the front is the actual LCA. Then press out your S13 ball joints and put them in the S14 LCA and it will bolt up.

Having the "ultimate s-chassis suspension" will not be easy. You have to first find out what ultimate is and unless you mean just bolting on parts, it may be a much more involved and harder task that you are thinking. In my opinion, some suspension points would have to be moved, which ones and how far exactly would take a lot of measuring and some simulation work. There are some ones that are obvious fixes for one thing or another, but what else they'll change can be hard to guess. But there's a lot you can do before you get to that point. And despite the suspension geometry flaws, it can be accounted for in spring/damper/bar setup, alignment and tire/wheel selection.

Tim

[Invisible_Saddle]

the s14 front lca's is for the 10mm wider track?? you could do that with some battle versions rod ends...

[AceInHole]

A race shop could lengthen the stock arms easily, or just add a heim joint to replace the inboard bushing.

As for changing suspension mount locations, I'd think most classes would deem that illegal, no? I'd guess if you were just doing it for fun you could convert to double wishbone and run circle track spindles..... but IMO the cost/ benefit isn't worth it. If you're going that far, just buy an open wheeler :P

[spool_sample]

As for changing suspension mount locations, I'd think most classes would deem that illegal, no? I'd guess if you were just doing it for fun you could convert to double wishbone and run circle track spindles..... but IMO the cost/ benefit isn't worth it. If you're going that far, just buy an open wheeler :P

A-Mod FTW. :P

One thing I was wondering about, though: hydraulic spring perches. I was reading about these on the Hyperco website the other day... are these mostly a gimmick or do they really increase mechanical grip as they claim?

[veilside180sx]

Hydraulic perches have to be rebuilt pretty frequently, which is not worth the expense to me.

[a_ahmed]

heh, if i did not misread apparently that device requires rebuilds between 10-12 hours of use... damn... http://www.hypercoils.com/Products/Hyperco-Hydraulic-Spring-Perch.aspx

Well anyways I got a hold of an s15 subframe from a buddy in cal yay (Jon from MomentumGT he has a super cool s13 time attack car) :D The shipping costs an arm and a leg, but he gave me a good price for everything shipped 309$USD :)

Now I just need the offset bushings... still on a hunt for z32 rear spindles though as that one guy backed out on me stating they were crack (whether they were or not i dont know but if they were good that i didnt get them)

Kind of off/on topic, I was reading the last issue of grassroots motorsports and they had a corvette that used a similar vacuum idea as the chapparal!.. Imagine having one of those on a 240 hahaha.

I remember the chapparal car first from gran turismo :P I read into it, and it's actually quite an amazing/interesting concept. Apparently there was also a formula 1 car that had it for like one season or something. The problem with it are the rocks that fly out of it's exhaust LOL... other formula 1 drivers complained of rocks hitting their cars from that vacum.. On the other hand the chapparal the drivers behind it complained of having their cars wooshed around due to the exhaust and effect of the chapparal's vacuum. It's awesome... apparently it could generate something like a constant 2000lbs of downforce at all times.. frickin amazing, that apparently even at startup, launching, it wouldn't have much of a traction issue in other words all that downforce from 0km/hr... amazing.

[veilside180sx]

Yup you read that correctly on the rebuild schedule.

Good to hear you are making some progress on that.=)

[a_ahmed]

Man I have the worst of luck.............................................. .............

Jon from momentumgt unfortunately informed that the subframe he had in posession was s14 not s13... and that the s15 subframe he had was 'recycled' or something by some idiot by accidental for metal.................. I'm heart broken lol.... I swear :( Maan.. well he's gona return my money but..... this makes me sad... argh.....

[No Rotr]

How much difference would the S15 subframe really make? I am interested in this, can someone please educate me. I understand the S15 piece has a better toe curve but most importantly it has much less anti-squat, correct? Could the same be achieved with something like SPL's subframe spacer and a S13 subframe(this wouldn't help the toe curve of course)?

[90kacoupe]

sorry for the bump.. but isnt the s14 and s15 subframe pretty much the same?? atleast thats what i have always read.. i would kinda like to know before i decide to use the s14 subframe i have laying around.

[a_ahmed]

No its not the same... but if im not mistaken both are 10mm wider. S15 is reinforced and has better mounting points.