Brake pads for Z32 calipers

[turtl631]

Z32 calipers have some decent pads available, but definitely not everything on the market, and some of them are really expensive. I've done a lot of searching around to see what is out there, so I'll post up the best deals I've found. Something to keep in mind is the the 06+ WRX and the RacingBrake 4 piston calipers from their big brake kits both use the same pad as the 300ZX front, so you can use those when searching as well.

Front caliper track pads

Hawk Blue: Conceptzperformance.com- $82- Track only, very abrasive to rotors when cold, popular with cheap SCCA racers, great bang for the buck.

Hawk HT-10: conceptzperformance.com has them for $165, price seems typical- Pretty popular track pad, higher MOT than Blues, not as brutal on rotors as blues

PFC 01: vividracing.com has these listed for 06+ WRX- $197 list- Supposed to be a great track pad, very high MOT, pretty popular with BMW/Evo/Vette guys

BHP CR6: not listed on site yet, but supposed to be released soon. $165 Got good reviews from a member here, and guys on other forums liked them as a street/track dual duty pad.

Hawk DTC series are not offered for the 300ZX calipers. I can't find any Raybestos ST-4X series pads either, which get great reviews from track guys.

Front caliper street pads
For street pads, you have many options- Hawk HPS, HP+, Axxis ULT (was called Ultimate in the past). Ultimates are like $55 a set for fronts; I think they're a nice street pad, with no noise but lots of dust. I've even tracked on them with stock KA power and been fine, but they're not recommended for the front of a track car. Might be a good option for the rears since they don't heat up as much, but with bigger front brakes and a more aggressive front compound, you might end up with too much front bias. It really depends on your setup.

Rear caliper pads
Hawk Blues and HT-10, HPS and HP+, Axxis ULT all available, usually a little cheaper than fronts.

You can also get Porterfield, Carbotech, and Cobalt pads for Z32 calipers, but these all seem to have various price, quality, etc. issues so I didn't really seek them out.

[spool_sample]

Carbotech XP8s are excellent. I had the opportunity to drive a few cars with these pads, and they are a fantastic do-everything pad. Noisy and dusty, and a little tough to modulate at first, but they felt great to me once I got used to them. For the average driver on street tires, these are probably the best way to go.

A buddy of mine with a 350Z (one of the cars I drove, in fact) uses them every day - daily driving, autocrossing, and track days - and claims that he sees no reason to use anything more or less aggressive.

I have a set of XP8s somewhere around here for next season, but I've been wondering more and more about the BHPs... I have heard nothing but good things about them.

[Def]

I'm not that thrilled with Carbotech pads after having some Panther Plus(AX6) not even hold up to 200 rwhp at the track with 300ZX brakes all around. Some people seem to like their higher temp pads, but for everybody that says they're great, I find someone that had the same experience I had with overheating a pad and transferring material when it should be fine.

[ecugrad]

I have invited Matt Nicholson of BHP Brakes (formerly of Carbotech) hopefully he will drop in a shed some light for you guys.

[MaddMatt]

Greetings guys! I'm Matt from BHP Brakes. We're quite excited about our new race pad program. Front pads for the Z32 caliper will be availible this month. I'm looking at the week of the 21st for a release date.

I think the CR6 compound is ideal as a dual-use pad for motorsports. Fade resistance is in the 1000-1100F range, but they work immediately when cold. As others mentioned I drive them to work daily. Dust washes right off, even if it sits on the rim for weeks, and they don't chew up rotors at all. Noise varies from car to car. I have had none on my SE-R, friend of mine had some at low speeds on his S2000.

See you guys at the track.....

[turtl631]

Def-

That's what I've found too, even some of the hardcore Evo/Vette/M3 guys like the Carbotechs, but there's also quite a few bad reviews and pad transfer issues. The only pads I've seen to be pretty universally lauded are PFC, BHP (early to say for sure though), and Raybestos.

Ecugrad- I hope Matt Nicholson posts. We've exchanged emails and he's been quite helpful.

[veilside180sx]

Def-

That's what I've found too, even some of the hardcore Evo/Vette/M3 guys like the Carbotechs, but there's also quite a few bad reviews and pad transfer issues. The only pads I've seen to be pretty universally lauded are PFC, BHP (early to say for sure though), and Raybestos.

Ecugrad- I hope Matt Nicholson posts. We've exchanged emails and he's been quite helpful.

^That's Matt Nicholson that posted above you=D

[turtl631]

It didn't show up for some reason before. Maybe I took my time writing that post or something. Ha. Excuses!

[McCoy]

Good to see you posting here, Matt. I'll be picking up a set of the CR6 pads from you when they release... Hawk blues on a wet track is a big no-no if you like your wheels :(

[turtl631]

I think I'll be getting a set too. Debating on trying Z33 rotors since I got the brackets for them on the cheap, but they're about 2.5x the cost of Z32 rotors. Still, a little more heat-dissipating mass and front bias couldn't hurt. I wish Z32 rotors were a bit larger; the calipers are nice but the rotor diameter just leaves a little to be desired.

[Def]

Matt,

What do you guys have in the way of a track-only pad that doesn't have demon-dust like Hawk Blues?

I've accepted my car is beyond the capabilities of a dual use pad, so I need a set of track pads. At this point it's looking like HT-10s, but does BHP have anything comparable in capabilities that is maybe a little cheaper?

[McCoy]

Def, I'd still consider the Hawk Blue's for track pads... for the price you can't go wrong. As long as it isn't wet, I've had no problems with them.

[Def]

I hear they work pretty well... although with the temp range I wonder if I'd overheat them(braking requirements are dictated by power).

I've seen plenty of wheels destroyed by Hawk Blue dust that got wet for whatever reason, and it's honestly enough to make me really want to avoid them.

[MaddMatt]

Matt,

What do you guys have in the way of a track-only pad that doesn't have demon-dust like Hawk Blues?


Nothing right now. Our PR-series (pro-race series) stop amazingly well, but the dust is sticky on the rims. Seems to be much kinder to the rotors than Blues, but there is still dust issues when it gets wet. That's really the state of things right now. If you need 1500F stopping ability, it takes very serious friction compounds to do that.

I have no schedule to manufacture our PR-series in that shape, but if the interest is there, I'll do it. They will likely be in the PFC-price range (~$200) if we do them.

At this time, as much as I hate to say it, HT-10 is likely your best option.

Edit: BTW, we are accepting pre-orders.....

[turtl631]

Any plans to make pads for the rear 300ZX calipers?

[MaddMatt]

Not right now. Certainly in the future.

[MaddMatt]

Update: Pads are ready.....

[McCoy]

Update: Pads are ready.....
did you post a price yet? Or should I say what is the best way to order a set from you :)

[MaddMatt]

Sorry, yeah price....

The Z32 front pad list price is $165 for CR6 compound. Drop the "Nissan Road Race Forum" name, and I'll give you 10% off :) So that'll be $148.50+shipping. As a comparison, Carbotech's AX6 (formerly Panther Plus) goes for $149, so it's comparably priced. I also think CR6 performs a little more like XP8, so it's a better pad for the same $$$.

Matt

[veilside180sx]

Matt I appreciate you offering a discount to our members :D

Does BHP make any Wilwood Dynalite pads? All of my cars run this setup.

[ecugrad]

Sorry, yeah price....

I also think CR6 performs a little more like XP8, so it's a better pad for the same $$$.

Matt

I'd agree with that analysis except I think its easier to modulate the CR6.

[MaddMatt]

Application list (http://www.bhpbrakes.com/HTML/blank/RaceApplications.html) has been updated with prices.

Matt

[McCoy]

Matt, how do you think the CR6 pads will do for a street driving. I only drive my car 3 miles a day for work in the summer time and to the track... so it wouldn't see that much street miles in a year. I replace my rotors yearly, if not twice a year... I more concerned about the pad wear when cold.

[MaddMatt]

I daily drive CR6. They are prefectly fine on the street. Dusty, but *right there* when you need them, even bone cold.

[spool_sample]

I might have to give these a shot.

Any idea how these might do with XP8s on stock S14 calipers in the rear?

[MaddMatt]

Spool, I'd rather not speculate too much. They may be just fine since both modulate very well.

[McCoy]

My CR6 pads have been ordered... now I just need to decide what to use for the rear Z32 setup with these... maybe an HP+ pad? This would be for daily driving and wet track days basically. The blues I only pull out on dry days when there is not chance of rain ;)

[ecugrad]

My CR6 pads have been ordered... now I just need to decide what to use for the rear Z32 setup with these... maybe an HP+ pad? This would be for daily driving and wet track days basically. The blues I only pull out on dry days when there is not chance of rain ;)

I have just been using some crap stock pad in the rear, seems to work just fine.

Give 'em a shot in the dry, I do not think they will dissapoint.

[McCoy]

I have just been using some crap stock pad in the rear, seems to work just fine.

Give 'em a shot in the dry, I do not think they will dissapoint.
With the hawk blues up front and stock pads in the rear I had issues when trying to threshold brake from 125+ mph. Once I added hawk blues F/R, then I had a much easier time braking. I was thinking I'd probably have the same issue with these too.

Also, the stock pads that I've been using are like slivers now, so I am needing to replace them soon anyways...

[Def]

Something like an Axxis Ultimate works "ok" in the rear for dual duty. The coeff. of friction isn't that much different from more track oriented pads to where they cause much of a bias issue. Stock pads likely have a fair bit lower coeff. of friction.



McCoy, how much power you making, and how did you like the Hawk Blues? They're so cheap for Z32 fronts that I keep thinking about them. Is the dust really as demon nasty as most people say?

[McCoy]

I've found the Ultimates for about $56 shipped and the HPS's for $65 shipped... I'll probably try the HPS's since a few people have stated they have alittle more grip than the Ultimates.

Def - I'm at 11psi with the T28 and S3 cams. From looking at my dyno's with the Sentra, I'd say I'm close to 240-250whp. The car weighs in at 2550lbs with me out of it also.

I like the hawk blues for the price/performance factory. I did most of my track days NA, but with the Blues in the front/rear of the car, the braking felt great. I've had better pads, these don't modulate as well as others I've had, but they are not available for the Z32 caliper so I'll stick with them until I start to see fade or feel that i want to try something else.

They dust as much as any other track pad I've used, I wouldn't worry about that to much. It's when you get them wet at the track that you need to worry, it turns into a concrete on your wheels that you can't get off... hence me purchasing a good pad for the street/wet track days. Also, people call these rotor eaters. I measured the rotors after every track day and found that average rotor loss was .02mm per track day, this is acceptable in my book. I did have a sticky caliper on the first day with the blues in and lost alot of life out of the passanger front rotor, but after that they wore normally.

I've yet to do a track day on a HOT day with these pads after I turboed the car, that will be the test. I was kind of worried about that, so I got the Z33 rotors... I figure if I can get more life out of the pads/rotors by keeping overall brake temps down then the extra cost for the Z33 rotors would be worth it. Also, if I don't have to step up to a more expenive pad, thats a bonus too... an HT-10 is almost double the cost of the Blue's. At least that's my logic...

[McCoy]

I realized that I posted my thoughts/opinions of the brakes after every track day last year on the sr20forum... I just collected them all up and put them in my blog for easy reference :)

http://nissanroadracing.com/vbulletin/blog.php?b=121#comment579

[Def]

Gotcha, that's about what I've heard from other people. Not that I'm making it out to the track much these days, but I think I'm going to look into a Wilwood setup and sell off my Z32s in the future. Pads are way cheaper, and the Wilwoods are lighter.

Plus I do think it might take some pretty high temp pads to make these small Z32 rotors happy on the track.

[a_ahmed]

I was just going to ask the question.....

Arizona Z Car setup:

http://www.arizonazcar.com/240sxbrakes.html

Two piece rotors, lightweight calipers with huge pads, 6piston front, 4 piston rear. Proven to work/stop faster/fade less obviously... Good price... imho..

I want to sell my 300zx setup as well.. I have front and rear + mbc..

[ecugrad]

With the hawk blues up front and stock pads in the rear I had issues when trying to threshold brake from 125+ mph. Once I added hawk blues F/R, then I had a much easier time braking. I was thinking I'd probably have the same issue with these too.

Also, the stock pads that I've been using are like slivers now, so I am needing to replace them soon anyways...

Ok, I'll have to give something a bit stronger a try for rear pads.

Also, I am not turboed, so I don't get going quite as fast as you do :(

[McCoy]

a_hmed, before you get to excited about the 6pot wilwood fronts I'd check into the cost of pads... from what I remember they weren't that cheap. Also, price out replacment rotors, depending on the size they can get expensive. I know that brian pays about $400+ for a pair of replacement rotors for his StopTeks (that's just the outer part of the 2-piece rotors)

[turtl631]

I researched brake stuff for these cars a lot a while back. There's no really cheap way to do it. The 2 piece rotors are all pricey, even just for the outer rings. The Arizona Z car setup uses the jankiest looking hats ever...I don't think I could get past that. The Racingbrakes kit looks nice, and I like their rotor designs, but their 4 pot caliper uses Z32 pads, which brings you back to square one (rare, expensive pads). You can get PFC 01s for the Z32 calipers for around $200, which is a very well-regarded pad. Otherwise, selection is weak for hardcore pads. Stoptech is expensive, but probably a decent option with cheap pads available (guessing here, I don't know offhand). And as McCoy showed us, the rotor adaptors don't allow the caliper to use the whole rotor, since it's designed for a significantly smaller diameter rotor.

[a_ahmed]

Well that may be but the arizona z car setup has been proven on track by people... it may look cheap but it works... also i forget where the weight is i can find it for you but the 4 piston calipers+rotors are lighter than the stock 1 piston 240 caliper rotor setup and is bigger than the z32 stock setup... the pads are real fat also so they last quite a bit... plus for the price its good... but just a thought...

[ecugrad]

The 2 piece rotors are all pricey, even just for the outer rings.

I have a good friend who had 2 piece rotors on his track car. He ate them like no tomorrow no matter what brand he bought. 3 weekends MAX and it was time for ~$400 worth of rotors.

[McCoy]

I ran the equivalent of the Arizona Z brakes on my Sentra. They were nice, but for the price of the Z32 setup, not that nice ;).

THe Dynalites are to small, my opinion, for the 240. The pads are about 1/3 the size the of the Z32 pads and a set of $90 pads typically only lasted me 4 days on track if I was lucky. Rotors lasted maybe 1 year if I was nice to them...

[Def]

I was more interested in the 12.2" front setup from Arizona Z-car than the big 6 piston setup. I emailed him, and it looks like it'd be about a 8-9 lb per corner weight savings(Z32 rotors are heavy... and the Al calipers aren't that light either).

The pads do look a little smaller than a Z32 setup, but not horribly so. They're about 4" by about 2" tall. At $50ish per pair of nice Hawk pads, I can live with using them up a little faster since you can easily buy 3 sets of Wilwood sized pads for less than 1 set of Z32 pads of the same compound.


Dave at Arizona Z Car also doesn't use Dynalites anymore from what he said, he said he goes with billet Dynapros, with forged Dynalites as an option. The Dynapros have cheaper pads since they aren't quite as tall, but I don't think it'll be a big difference.

12.2" x 32mm rotors aren't that expensive from Wilwood. Not Z32 rotor cheap, but you can get a set for a little less than a set of Z33 Brembo rotors, so still very reasonable. They'll probably last longer than Z32 rotors too(mine get LOTS of surface cracks after just one outing on the track, and after 3 events on one set of rotors I wanted to toss 'em they were so cracked). So I can't imagine costs over the life of the rotors being that much different between the two setups.


One thing I don't like is that Arizona Z-car uses the largest piston bores on their calipers, and I think something like the 1.62" piston diameters is much more reasonable(about 3% more braking force than stock Z32 calipers). So once you put the calipers out on a longer moment arm, you have a little bit more front bias, but I still think it's reasonable since a full Z32 setup is a little rear biased for a gutted S13 IMO.

[McCoy]

Def - your going to need to show me where you can get track pads at for $50 a set? I was using the polymatic 'C's for a while and those cost me about $75 shipped on average. 'B's and any other pad I looked at cost more.

Surface cracks are to be expected, Brian's StopTeks showed surface cracks after a few sessions and he ran them till a crack got within 1" of either the inside or outside edge, then tossed them then... which was typically a full year.

I weighed all the options before picking up the Z32 setup, for the initial cost, I only paid $250 for the front/rear calipers and Z32 BMC and booster, I couldn't beat it. Even for the added cost of the brackets and the additional cost of the Z33 rotors, I still don't think it's a bad deal. I'll have more feedback as I get in a few more track days this year thought...

[Def]

A quick google search yielded:

http://www.livermoreperformance.com/hawk_3.html


Every Z32 rotor I've taken to the track has been junk after about 200 track miles. They got surface cracks the first session out, after that it just got bad(like throw away bad after 2 weekends). I think it's either their face thickness and small vanes, or the mass of them overall, but something causes them to get "too hot" over about 200 rwhp on track.

I don't think Z32s are a bad budget setup, but they really haven't worked out near as well as I have hoped.

But I guess I'm more used to BMW M cars that seem to have pretty reasonable rotor sizes for tracking given their power/weight - except when you get into their heavy late model cars with tons of power.

[McCoy]

I guess the last time I did a search on dynalite pads was 2 years ago, and the Hawks were not on my list of pads then. Actually, I was surprised on the cost of the HT-10 pads... only $60 for a set, not bad.

I did 3 track days with the turbo on last year, granted the ambient temperature of those days were not that high, but the rotors didn't show any extra wear. I will get some testing in with 275 RA-1's with what's left of the Z32/hawk blues once we have a hotter day and a way to get my track tires to the track (need a trailer hitch built).

The local track is known as a brake killer with 3 hard braking zones in a row that has taken the life of a few cars where the owner didn't catch their pad fade or fluid boil in time...

I'm not against the Wilwood setup, just wasn't a fan of this small of a caliper on our cars... especially once the power and tire size is increased... just from my experience with the sentra. Maybe with a larger rotor it won't be that much of an issue.

[Def]

Given that most Z32 pads are very chamfered to start with, the pad area is probably very close between a Wilwood Dynalite/Dynapro caliper and the Z32 caliper for most of the pad life. The Z32 pad does look to be about 0.6" wider at the base and about the same height, so even then it's really not a big difference.

I'm not completely sold on them yet, but that's the direction I'm leaning towards if I get some $$$ to devote to brakes soon.

[McCoy]

Given that most Z32 pads are very chamfered to start with, the pad area is probably very close between a Wilwood Dynalite/Dynapro caliper and the Z32 caliper for most of the pad life. The Z32 pad does look to be about 0.6" wider at the base and about the same height, so even then it's really not a big difference.
Actually, the Hawk Blues and CR6 pads are not champered... just an fyi...

[McCoy]

OK, I just got back from bedding in the CR6 pads and must say these are some very nice pads indeed. Similiar to a Carbotech Panther+ in feeling, but the best part is that they don't need to even be warm (first stop in 35F weather) to stop the car.

They have a good Cf, modulate easily, stop the car when cold, and who knows what else... all the making for a nice dual purpose brake pad. I'll have alot more feedback this coming weekend.

They even come nicely packaged... thanks again Matt :)
http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/959/medium/BHP_pads.jpg

[McCoy]

I just threw on the Z33 (350Z track edition) rotors tonight with these pads.

I've yet to use a HP+ pad, so I have no experience with them yet.

[a_ahmed]

I have had HP+ daily last summer-end of summer when i winter parked it, they were nice when i first got them but now it somehow became hard or locks up easier, but i think that has more to do with my crappily used up hardened tires methinks. It also didn't make alot of noise at first, just a pinch of sliding sound (if thats good way to explain), but now they squeal alot heh... they dust alot also quite a hassle to clean... better than what i previously had though. I'm open to better options always though. I need better tires before i imagine of stopping any faster imho.

[ecugrad]

I have had HP+ daily last summer-end of summer when i winter parked it, they were nice when i first got them but now it somehow became hard or locks up easier, but i think that has more to do with my crappily used up hardened tires methinks. It also didn't make alot of noise at first, just a pinch of sliding sound (if thats good way to explain), but now they squeal alot heh... they dust alot also quite a hassle to clean... better than what i previously had though. I'm open to better options always though. I need better tires before i imagine of stopping any faster imho.

I have had the same experience with the HP+. They seem to be an on/off switch

[BigOdom1]

agreed mine seem on off but then again i dont have abs so...

[a_ahmed]

Yea I don't have ABS either.

[McCoy]

I don't have abs and the CR6 pads do not feel like an on/off switch...

[ecugrad]

No ABS here as well.

[turtl631]

There's also a 13" rotor/Forged Superlite kit for the 5 lug 240SX for around $1k out there. From some quick googling, rotor rings are around $190 for that kit, and pads cost quite a bit more than the ones for the Arizona 12.2" kit. Rotor rings for that are around $160. There could be cheaper out there, but this is what I've stumbled upon.

[BigOdom1]

i revise that at autox they seem more on off on the track they seem to be nice with hawk pads. i guess i have not really heated the pads and tires up well enough on either of the autox i have been to

[BigOdom1]

while looking at the bhp site i noticed that they are for lightweight cars 2500lbs and under like specmiata. anyway i was wondering; being the big guy that i am and my s14 with full interior and leather is over 3000 lbs with me in it. so mcCoy whats your weight>?

[McCoy]

while looking at the bhp site i noticed that they are for lightweight cars 2500lbs and under like specmiata. anyway i was wondering; being the big guy that i am and my s14 with full interior and leather is over 3000 lbs with me in it. so mcCoy whats your weight>?
with me in the car and a full tank of gas, probably around 2750lbs.

[Def]

Braking requirements on a track are dictated by power, not weight.

[turtl631]

Oh god, I'm remembering when you tried to explain this on FA and a few people just couldn't wrap their heads around it.

[BigOdom1]

your telling me that weight has no bearing on braking

[McCoy]

your telling me that weight has no bearing on brakingThink of it this way... if you are increasing weight and keeping the power the same, then the car is going to be slower... therefore not needing an increase in brakes for the added weight. If you increase weight and power or power alone, then you will need more brake. That's one way to look at it I guess.

[BigOdom1]

if you increase weight and the power stays the same then you are going to accelerate slower due to more load. just like with a truck and trailer when the trailer is empty the truck is not that hard to stop. but a trailer with a full load has more inertia when at speed and is therefore harder to stop due to the increase in weight

im not trying to argue but id would like to know more on this. Def link me to the discussion on FA i cant seem to find it

[McCoy]

if you increase weight and the power stays the same then you are going to accelerate slower due to more load. just like with a truck and trailer when the trailer is empty the truck is not that hard to stop. but a trailer with a full load has more inertia when at speed and is therefore harder to stop due to the increase in weight
Yeah, but your thinking of two vehicles (one with more weight) going at the same speed and trying to stop. On track, the vehicle with more weight is going to be going slower before the braking zone of each corner

What I stated above is with all things remaining the same, there are always factors in real life that will affect things... tire size, driver, and what not...

[Def]

It's pretty simple really - brakes turn kinetic energy to heat. Where is this kinetic energy coming from? Power your engine creates.

At a track where you are assuming you are on the power as often as you can be, then you size your brakes according to power output. They should be about the same between a 100 HP 2000 lb car and a 100 HP 3000 lb car.


On the street, of course you're not on the throttle as much as possible, so to account for the extra kinetic energy at a given speed(which is what you see on the street), then you see brakes sized along vehicle power *and* weight.

[BigOdom1]

what i am saying is this:
no trailer weight added to the truck alone
if you take a totally stock truck at say 5000 pounds going 50 mph it takes x number of feet to stop

if you add 1000 pounds to that (say the weight of a pallet of sod) and get the truck going 50 mph it will take greater than x number of feet to stop (x from the above situation)
note nothing changed but the weight. the power of the truck is the same. the brakes are the same

i use a truck with a pallet of sod because i have experience with this but it should not matter and comparible between a 2500 pound s14 with brakes designed for a 2500 pound vehicle and a s14 that weighs 3000 lbs with brakes designed for a 2500 pound car. since the weight of vehicles is 1:2ratio and weight added is 1:2ratio for comparison sake.

therefore i can say from experience that brake pads for a 5000 pound truck like mine stop well since they were the pads designed to stop the truck. but stopping it with a pallet of sod in the back weighing 6000 lbstotal is not the same therefore the weight of a vehicle does have an impact on the stopping power

[Def]

I think you're missing a bit of the basics of braking...

Maximum braking force is dictated by traction provided by the tires assuming you can lock them up(which pretty much every vehicle can do these days, especially ours with decent pads).

The brake sizing I'm talking about is for heat management.



Trust me - brake sizing for track duty should be done based on engine power output.


For street duty yes weight is an issue since you're typically talking braking from a given speed, but even stock brakes with a decent set of pads are MORE than sufficient for street use.

[BigOdom1]

no i have the basics and "basically" agree with everything you are saying except that you seem to be saying that suddenly on a track weight has no bearing where as on the street it does. that makes no sense.
note: if I listened to everyone who said "trust me" on the internet id be writing on cave walls and would revert back to prehistoric man. provide some explanation

also i am not looking for a set of pads to put on at the track i want to drive in go through tech and drive so i am referring to pads that see both street and track dutys. there fore i do not want a compound that was designed for a 2500 lb miata on my 3000 lb s14 for the street or the track.

here is the description on BHP site for this pad that im trying to discuss.
Developed for cars under 2500 lbs, this organic-low metallic compound offers very progressive torque development with excellent control and release. Operating temperatures are from ambient to 1000F. CR6 offers a wide variety of uses including autocross, beginner/intermediate track schools, and dedicated race use on lighter race cars (ie: Spec Miata). Although CR6 is street able enough to be driven to/from your event, making it a “jack of all trades” brake pad. CR6 is intended for OFF ROAD USE ONLY!
Recommended applications: All Autocross, Beginner / Intermediate Track School and Race Cars under 2500 lbs.

now why would they mention the weight TWICE if it was not an issue and refer it as a pad for LIGHTER WEIGHT like miata unless to steer clear of heavier cars. now i know that mccoy has them and also Matt who works at said place.

[BigOdom1]

regarding heat management the inertia from the added weight would affect heat accumulation in the caliper, the fluid ,the pad and the rotor. so how can weight be null and void

[turtl631]

He's said it already in this thread, but I'll repeat it: braking requirements on the track are dictated by power ONLY because given equivalent power, a heavier vehicle will be going slower when it starts to brake. On the street, in your sod-laden truck, weight is a factor because in both instances, you're going a given speed. On a track, a light 100 hp car will be going faster than a heavy 100 hp car, and thus braking requirements are the same. You have to think about it in terms of kinetic energy, and not relate it to street driving where you have a ton of time to get to whatever speed you want. On the street, your speed is limited by fear of the law and poor mpg. On the track, it's limited by power:weight ratio.

[BigOdom1]

im calling a particular pad into question based on manufacturers suggestions being different.

ie: matt suggesting a pad for a 2900 lb car and his companies website warning of the same pad not for use except in car less than 2500 lbs.

therefore i think there is an issue because my 2900 lb car makes more than 300hp and 300tq and he just recommended a pad for a <2500 lb car that makes 170hp and 140tq do you see my beef

[turtl631]

You said it- more power. The reason I could see them posting the weight guidelines is that weight and power are pretty well correlated with most passenger cars. The big power cars are mostly heavy, 3200 lbs+, and anything under 2800 lbs is generally pretty underpowered.

[a_ahmed]

wow its a warzone in here hehe. In my honest opinion, I think both of your points are valid and true. I think the discussion should have more to do with necessity vs ability rather than right or wrong. I do get both arguments but I think you are both just running after each other's tails with ultimately the same goal hehe.

[BigOdom1]

picture me in a smoking jacket sitting in a recliner smoking a tobacco pipe with some classical music on upstairs when you read everything i posted if i read like a heated argument i apologize

[Def]

im calling a particular pad into question based on manufacturers suggestions being different.

ie: matt suggesting a pad for a 2900 lb car and his companies website warning of the same pad not for use except in car less than 2500 lbs.

therefore i think there is an issue because my 2900 lb car makes more than 300hp and 300tq and he just recommended a pad for a <2500 lb car that makes 170hp and 140tq do you see my beef

The pad you're talking about is a street/track dual duty pad, so I think that's why it's gets the "general" recommendation of being used on a light/low powered car. Not that weight is a big factor in braking on the track as I mentioned, but I think everybody in this thread is a good indicator that the average person considers it to be MORE important than what is actually dictating things for track usage.

The real end all be all is combining all aspects of the brakes together and looking at the temperatures produced in the pad for a given application for a set of brakes on a car making X amount of power on the track. Once the coefficient of friction falls off, at probably 1200ish deg F for a dual duty pad, the goose is cooked and no amount of math or conjecture is going to get you stopped for the next braking zone.

Hence that's why pad recommendations are more a bit of general usage stipulations, and a lot of error for seeing if they really work when they're "on the edge."

[ecugrad]

Well, Matt is at the track this weekend, maybe he will come in here Monday and clear it up.

[McCoy]

im calling a particular pad into question based on manufacturers suggestions being different.

ie: matt suggesting a pad for a 2900 lb car and his companies website warning of the same pad not for use except in car less than 2500 lbs.

Actually, another important factor of brake pads and what I think Matt is getting at with the weight suggestions is how much bite (Cf, Coefficient of Friction) the pad has. For a lighter car if the Cf is to high, then there is a higher tendency to lock the tires, not so much on a heavier car. I know that Matt was talking about another pad he has for race only, but stated that on the lighter cars it locked up to easily... IIRC.

[BigOdom1]

now dont think i am questioning bhp or downing them in any way. just my own curiosity

[MaddMatt]

The weights listed on the pad descriptions are mere suggestions and not an iron-clad rule. For example, the CR6 will work fine on a 350Z, but due to the weight, the pad with more bite (PR1) will work much better in race conditions. Both compounds are availible, but if a T2 racer calls me up, I'm selling him PR1. If an autocrosser/novice track guy calls, I'm selling him CR6.

Its less how much the car weighs, and more what you're doing with it.

Clear as mud?

[BigOdom1]

crystal

[turtl631]

Ugh! The price of Hawk Blues seems to have doubled. Those Wilwoods keep looking better.

Matt, any reason why the 300ZX front pad isn't offered in either of the PR compounds? Is there any additional cost after the mold is made?

[Your Mom]

wow big thread, lots of info. the weight vs power thing is something i really havn't thought about, both of your points make perfect sense to me. but i'm leaning more towards that weight is a factor. I might be retarded.

Anyway, on to the real reason i stopped here. you all talked about blues and wet driving. I've been using blues all around and have had good results. But i've got a track day coming up and i'm worried its gonna be wet. and i really like my wheels right now so i don't want to get them messed up with brake dust and water.

if its wet i think i'll just throw my stock pads on. or cancel the track day.

the real question, is there something out there that i could put on my rim to keep the brake dust from gluing to the rims on wet track days. Like some kind of spray. like PAM or something, hahaha. what about wax? thoughts?

[BigOdom1]

what about that stuff drag racers use to keep the rubber from the tires

[a_ahmed]

lol i use meguiers wheel shine to clean my wheels.. hp+ dust alot so the fronts are like black and rear dark silver before a wash and its suppose to be a bright silver beneath heh.

Last time and actually just now when i did major cleanup of car (washed, clayed, polished, waxed) i also polished and waxed the
wheels it makes it look nice but i dont think it really helped with cleaning... it was still hell to clean.

[McCoy]

Waxing the wheels help for the most part, but I don't think they'll do anything to ward off the hellish cement that you'll get caked on your wheels from the hawk blues in the wet.

Brian, if it's wet I'd just go with your stock pads and you should be fine.

[MaddMatt]

Matt, any reason why the 300ZX front pad isn't offered in either of the PR compounds? Is there any additional cost after the mold is made?


Well to be honest I did not get his pad specifically for the Z32 caliper. I really got these pads for the 2006 WRX, which just so happens to be the same pad as the Z32. Virtually none of the WRXs actually "race" wheel-to-wheel, and the ones that do usually put a big Stoptech or Wilwood system on. Which means the only people still running with the stock system are people doing autocross, street and track days. Which means CR6, not the PR series.

If you guys really, really want some, I can to a group buy and do, say, 10 sets. More if there's more interest. There would be a lengthy lead-time though. Probably 2-ish months.

[McCoy]

Ugh! The price of Hawk Blues seems to have doubled. Those Wilwoods keep looking better.

SPL still shows them being $85 a set for the blues...

[turtl631]

The prices at other sites went up quite a bit, about double.

[a_ahmed]

Well I was looking for pad info in this thread and for those interested I ordered the following sexies :) Arizona Z car's 13" front 6piston setup and 12.2" rear 4 piston setup :) proportinoing bias valve and hydraulic park line lock.

He was asking me whether i want the street pad or track pad.. i told him id like CR6 pads haha... i guess he'll send me the regular street pads... the track pads he offers are probably hell on wheels as i daily mine in summer for work :)

Oh and where can i get canadian locally ate super blue... or would you suggest some other fluids?

Btw my MBC is a "1 1/16" 300zx mbc.. i wonder how this will feel.. right now its kind of hard as is with the front and rear 300zx setup i guess itll get a lil more soft which will be nice lol.. its kinda too hard even though i like it stiff

Edit:

He told me that he will hook me up with higher temp streetable pads (no idea which I am waiting on response)

[Def]

BHP doesn't make Wilwood caliper fitments AFAIK. I'm sure the guy was more than a bit confused...

Wilwood offers some pretty affordable fluid. I'll probably switch to that, although I always had good results with Ate. Just hate how everything turns blue with the SuperBlue, so I usually tried to source Type200, but it was hard to find. People love the blue I guess.


If you're just driving it on the street, you'll be plenty fine with some DOT4 Valvoline fluid you can get at a local autoparts store. I use this on my street car with good results.

[turtl631]

I use the Valvoline and just bleed it often, works fine when you're beginning.

[a_ahmed]

Any one of you try motul RBF600 fluid? I ran that twice.. it felt weird..

I heard good things about ate's super blue... never tried it... so i figured id give it a shot...

I drive hard... so... i like to have a lil extra pep in all my things... :-/

Def what do you mean everything turns blue lol.. I heard they have like two of them so you buuy both and then u know when to change or something.. the blue and non blue one

I would like to get the CR6 pads as I've heard good things from you guys and by googling around for reviews too...

I guess matt could make something.. i'm sure htey wouldnt mind broadening their product horizons... I mean who wouldn't want a pad thats dual purpose yet track oriented, easily washable brake dust, great feel and modulation, up to 1100f, good coefficent, not hard on rotors, etc... not pricey, plus great feedback from other users; thats a kick ass ideal deal :)

[Def]

The dye in Super Blue stains everything. An all blue reservoir sucks. I don't run the stuff anymore for that reason.

The clear stuff is Type200.

I highly doubt BHP is planning on making pads to fit a 6 piston Wilwood at this point, but I guess anything is possible.

[ecugrad]

+1 for SuperBlue/Type200

The thing with the high end Motul stuff is that its VERY hydroscopic. It sucks moisture out the air at a higher rate than "ordinary" brake fluid. It needs to be flushed much more often.

I wouldn't go much past the Ate stuff IMHO.

[a_ahmed]

yea.. no wonder.. thanks for the advice.

I guess ill look for the type 200 stuff :)

Question is where do we get it?! Especially poor ol' me in Canada haha :) I will stay away from the blue as it blues up the place :P

[Def]

Really though, if it's for street usage, use the Valvoline fluid. There is no way in the world you will ever boil it on the street... ever. I've seen tons of guys use it at the track with no issues as well.

[a_ahmed]

Honestly I didn't like rbf600.. it felt weird.

I will be tracking the car and well my definition of daily is not 'daily' heh

I've managed to boil rbf600 on red EBC pads... and this was slight adventuring and hot days (30celsius) with lots of stop go traffic and then some adventuring heh.

Once I switched to another fluid it felt better... and I switched to HP+ pads that was even better :P Still I could abuse them and fade them too.

I used to drive like a maniac... I've changed my habbits, but none the less, I like to have that safety margin.

I used to REALLY late brake.. now im scared as i havent in a while driven how i used to lmao... i'll see about that on track heh.

Someone mentioned willwood's fluid? What's up? And which valvoline fluid are you talking about?

The reason I mentioned blue and type 200 was because I've heard nothing but positive things over the years from people... I went instead like a fool for the bling bling advertisments and marketting of motul's stuff... and honestly didn't like it... lmao I even ran it in my winter beater escort, it honestly has a weird feel to it, really sucks... i went to regular dot 4 in the winter beater and the brake pedal felt more connected.. i dont know how to explain it, really weird :-/

[turtl631]

Sounds like you're just bleeding it improperly. Liquids are essentially incompressible, so any "feel" issues should be from air bubbles in the system.

[Def]

You didn't boil Motul RBF600 on the street unless you had a siezed caliper or something... there's just no way.

If you track your car you should flush the braking system before every event, or at the very least every month or two during track season. The Valvoline is their DOT4 stuff you can find anywhere - it almost has the same dry/wet boiling points of Ate's fluid.

Ate Superblue/Type200 isn't bad, I've run it tons of times before, but it's not the best thing since sliced bread. I mainly hate the large container size. You open it and it starts absorbing water, so by the end of the summer the fluid in the container is garbage. It works though... just completely unnecessary for any type of street driving. I don't care if you're driving like you're in the next Fast and the Furious movie - you don't need a fluid like that if you change it like you should(at least every year).

Wilwood has some good fluid that's available in pretty small containers, so I think I'm just going to stick with that from now on. I got mine at Summitracing.

[McCoy]

I ran the wilwood fluids for a while, had no issues with it, just that the cost and had to have it shipped led me to start using the Valvoline synthetic about 3 years ago, which I've had no problems using it to this date. I get pad fade well before fluid boil on the hotter track days when I'm pushing it.

[a_ahmed]

ouch.. so its synthetic.. hmm isnt that stuff a no no :-/ And that u can never go to another fluid or whatever... that it causes some kind of air build up that can never be released from the system, and that ud have to replace the brake lines or something

[McCoy]

^^^ never heard of this... I've switched to different fluids over the years, just to try, and always switched back with no ill effects.

sounds like another urban myth to me...

[a_ahmed]

Everyone told me never to get dot 5.1 synthetic stuff and that its a boogie man or something :-/ Someone could shred some light on this.

[Def]

It's silicone brake fluid you should avoid - not synthetic.

[McCoy]

Here's a good page from stoptek with a chart (at the bottom of the page) on the different fluids, boiling points, and cost. The Valvoline Synpower is the stuff that I've been using and happy with for sometime now... mainly because I can pick it up at most auto places close to me.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml

[a_ahmed]

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/006-MasterCylinders/012-EXP/index.asp

This **** looks the bomb, damn 626f boiling point lol... holy crap

[a_ahmed]

It's silicone brake fluid you should avoid - not synthetic.

Ah okay, my bad :o :D im at work and tired, syn sili cone all seems the same to me, but i didnt realize there was even a difference.

[MaddMatt]

DOT5 = silicone stuff. Avoid it. DOT5.1 is not silicone.

We sell Prospeed GS610. (http://www.bhpbrakes.com/HTML/blank/BrakeFluid.html) It also has a 626F dry bp. $15/bottle

[ecugrad]

DOT5 = silicone stuff. Avoid it. DOT5.1 is not silicone.

We sell Prospeed GS610. (http://www.bhpbrakes.com/HTML/blank/BrakeFluid.html) It also has a 626F dry bp. $15/bottle

And how often would one need to change that?

[MaddMatt]

Personally, I do a complete change at the beginning of the year, and just bleed to freshen up the fluid at the front calipers before each event. Roebling and Rockingham are exceptions. Those places just aren't hard enough on brakes to justify even that.

[a_ahmed]

Can you guys ship me 4 bottles of your prospeed gs610 to Canada? I don't know of anyone that sells it locally :(

[MaddMatt]

I'm sure we can. Call me at the number below.