View Full Version : Inspiration
a_ahmed
08-26-2009, 07:01 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/2677447028_92666d7c8f_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3237/2677446592_f92d1e667d_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3028/2676629339_1d435fe57a_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2109/2677445946_cb7bcdb484_b.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1225/662637610_1f7a49d564_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1141/662637598_286c43fe88_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2536/3786521762_13b93f5e3f_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1290/662637510_dc2216fd7f_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/2828724180_cf2cd0b00a_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2827887269_1361d79279_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2248/2047293875_bebb821460_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2053/2047293937_23af0242d5_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1345/786884099_e598ce9b77_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1273/786884081_e0f7cd963a_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1384/662637520_4062fad508_o.jpg
Some aero inspiration, thought these were neat.
a_ahmed
08-26-2009, 07:05 AM
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/images/fig18.gif
Just invert
a_ahmed
08-26-2009, 07:08 AM
http://insideracingtechnology.com/Resources/gurneyflap.gif
http://www.f1journal.com/photos/gurney_004.jpg
a_ahmed
08-26-2009, 07:14 AM
Well lookey a 240:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/durgle/wingstands_1-1.jpg
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/durgle/wingstands_3.jpg
DuckyD
08-26-2009, 10:43 AM
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/durgle/wingstands_3.jpg
Is it normal that he has no roof?
Like it will be welded back together without loss of structural integrity?
a_ahmed
08-26-2009, 11:18 AM
Alot of peeps cut the roof when doing a cage, not all though. Also it's not that significant if you have a cage, plus x2 on people who run a carbon roof (kognition, these two guys in the UK with s13s), same idea, caged.
AceInHole
09-01-2009, 08:30 AM
You just had to post a bunch of shots of the Hoops car that I get to run against next week....
He's got a different wing now though:
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/AceInHole/Autocross/2009%20Toledo%20ProSolo/DSC_8426.jpg
WilloW
09-01-2009, 09:00 AM
A_ahmed, here's some eye candy for you http://www.mulsannescorner.com/. Every time I'm on that site it's really easy for me to dream about cutting up the car and do stupid things to it.
a_ahmed
09-01-2009, 05:09 PM
siiiiiiiiiiiiickkkkkkkk
I still don't understand why S chassis guys are so into mounting wings to the car frame when they make maybe a couple hundred pounds of downforce max.
a_ahmed
09-01-2009, 05:33 PM
^maybe cause they are trying to extract every ounce possible?
PJ I could be wrong but it looks like the same wing but with different mounts, I mean same foil shape/size (no?) but with different mounts
Matt93SE
09-01-2009, 05:37 PM
Force is force. It doesn't matter whether its pushing down with 300lb on the trunklid or the bumper or the frame or whatever. 300lb is still 300lb. The only difference would be if the turnklid flexes enough to change the AOA of the wing, which would affect downforce numbers to some minute extent. Even then, it would really only affect it at very high speeds when you want to limit the amount of downforce anyway.
Force is force. It doesn't matter whether its pushing down with 300lb on the trunklid or the bumper or the frame or whatever. 300lb is still 300lb. The only difference would be if the turnklid flexes enough to change the AOA of the wing, which would affect downforce numbers to some minute extent. Even then, it would really only affect it at very high speeds when you want to limit the amount of downforce anyway.
Exactly. The moment generated from backswept wing mounts will only serve to reduce the AoA of the wing, which is what you WANT at max downforce(end of a straight, no real traction needed).
Even if the trunk is severely bending about a 1/4" front to back, I doubt it'd make much of a difference. Yet any little bit you reduce the AoA is going to reduce drag.
The engineer inside of me gets angry when people go through such trouble to make their car slower.
racepar1
09-01-2009, 08:14 PM
Is it normal that he has no roof?
Like it will be welded back together without loss of structural integrity?
That's the kognition design s-14, he has a carbon fiber roof. Also that's an old picture, he makes his own uber badass wings now.
I still don't understand why S chassis guys are so into mounting wings to the car frame when they make maybe a couple hundred pounds of downforce max.
Because that is the "proper" way to do it. It makes little difference, but why not on a track only car? Besides it looks way more hardcore.
:p
AceInHole
09-02-2009, 08:02 AM
I like my trunk mounted wing. I think it looks pretty badass with the trunk open and the wing way up in the air. The only reason I'd change it would be if the fiberglass trunk lid isn't structural enough to support the wing, and in that case I'd probably just go to the rear fenders right beside the edge of the trunk lid.
Because that is the "proper" way to do it. It makes little difference, but why not on a track only car? Besides it looks way more hardcore.
:p
Nothing proper about it. Just something clubracers came up with and now it's the "hot" thing. Probably because they took 0.7 lbs of
trunk skin off then had to add in an extra 5 lbs of support structure getting their wing down to the frame. All to "save weight" and look cool in the paddock.
racepar1
09-02-2009, 11:58 AM
I like my trunk mounted wing. I think it looks pretty badass with the trunk open and the wing way up in the air. The only reason I'd change it would be if the fiberglass trunk lid isn't structural enough to support the wing, and in that case I'd probably just go to the rear fenders right beside the edge of the trunk lid.
That was my intention once I get a fiberglass hatch.
Nothing proper about it. Just something clubracers came up with and now it's the "hot" thing. Probably because they took 0.7 lbs of
trunk skin off then had to add in an extra 5 lbs of support structure getting their wing down to the frame. All to "save weight" and look cool in the paddock.
Read post above, it originates from REAL racecars because the bodypanels are not strong enough to support the wing. Mounting a wing to the chasis is never a bad idea. Is it completely necessary most of the time, probably not. I do not understand your contempt for this. The kognition s-14 pictured has full custom carbon race bodypanels everywhere possible. It is simply not possible for him to mount the wing to the trunklid. Hell anyone who has a fiberglass/carbon trunk or hatch really shouldn't be mounting a wing to it. At least not without some sort of bracing on the hatch/trunk itself.
Most REAL racecars with a trunk panel still mount the wing to the trunk with proper reinforcement if the loading warrants it. Have nothing against the above car except it is likely lighter to mount it to the trunk no matter how you slice it.
BeerBringer
09-02-2009, 01:11 PM
I have my GTC-200 wing on my FRP lid. Works great!
It is braced though.
a_ahmed
09-02-2009, 02:05 PM
lol stop mentioning the gtc-200 i still have to install mine bahaha... i'm glad you get positive results from it though ;)
racepar1
09-02-2009, 03:19 PM
Most REAL racecars with a trunk panel still mount the wing to the trunk with proper reinforcement if the loading warrants it. Have nothing against the above car except it is likely lighter to mount it to the trunk no matter how you slice it.
Sure, I guess. BUT there is an elaborate support structure inside the trunk to support the wing, which is the same thing as mounting it to the chasis. How are you going to mount a wing to a trunklid that is pretty much a few layers of carbon formed to look like a trunk? It's not possible without a support structure mounted to the chasis. When I think of a real racecar I am thinking about GT class cars and above. I suppose a lot of touring cars probably do have their wings mounted to the trunklid. I also suppose that they are required to have OE style trunklids and I also suppose that there is some sort of intelligent bracing inside the trunklid itself.
Sure, I guess. BUT there is an elaborate support structure inside the trunk to support the wing, which is the same thing as mounting it to the chasis. How are you going to mount a wing to a trunklid that is pretty much a few layers of carbon formed to look like a trunk? It's not possible without a support structure mounted to the chasis. When I think of a real racecar I am thinking about GT class cars and above. I suppose a lot of touring cars probably do have their wings mounted to the trunklid. I also suppose that they are required to have OE style trunklids and I also suppose that there is some sort of intelligent bracing inside the trunklid itself.
It doesn't take all that much carbon fiber to add enough bending strength to take a few hundred lbs usually mounted a few inches from the outside structure of the car.
Some friends that were making an experimental composite aircraft made a test piece out of some 3/4" foam and a few layers of fiberglass. It was 24" long and anybody could easily stand on the middle of it when each end was suspended on something solid. Carbon fiber is a few multiples stronger than that(when done properly).
Whole monocoques of an F1 car weigh less than a couple hundred lbs and take 5+ G's without issues with much higher aero loads than you'd see from a "slow moving" GT car.
BeerBringer
09-02-2009, 10:56 PM
lol stop mentioning the gtc-200 i still have to install mine bahaha... i'm glad you get positive results from it though ;)
I'm sorry :D
But it seams like I have to because people keep wrighting about how stupid it is to mount wings on hatch lids...especially FRP ones.
racepar1
09-03-2009, 08:53 PM
It doesn't take all that much carbon fiber to add enough bending strength to take a few hundred lbs usually mounted a few inches from the outside structure of the car.
Some friends that were making an experimental composite aircraft made a test piece out of some 3/4" foam and a few layers of fiberglass. It was 24" long and anybody could easily stand on the middle of it when each end was suspended on something solid. Carbon fiber is a few multiples stronger than that(when done properly).
Whole monocoques of an F1 car weigh less than a couple hundred lbs and take 5+ G's without issues with much higher aero loads than you'd see from a "slow moving" GT car.
I know exactly how carbon monocoques are constructed, almost certainly better then anyone else on this board. Those monocoques are over an inch thick and contain layers of not only carbon and a honeycomb core, but also kevlar since kevlar doesn't shear likie carbon does. The resin breaks, but the fibers hang on. I'm sure current F1 chasis go well beyond that though. Essentially making the trunklid itself a monocoque support structure is not commonly practiced though. I don't see any wings of any significant size mounted to body panels on F1 cars either. The rear wing is bolted to the back of the transaxle and the front wing is bolted to the nosecone (which is a monocoque structure as well). What you are describing can be done, but it is not commonly practiced. Formula cars are the ONLY cars that I can think of that have a significant sized wing mounted to a monocoque body panel structure. Everything else that I have ever seen had the wing mounted either to a nice sturdy trunklid or had a support structure to the chasis.
Every open wheel car mounts the front wing like that, usually through a few thin strips of carbon fiber.
Never seen a monocoque being over an inch thick from the ones I've seen up close, that's probably thicker than a door on a supersonic fighter...
I'm not saying you build the trunklid like a monocoque, just that it wouldn't require much carbon at all to add the neccessary strength, or even fiberglass.
It doesn't even matter what "race teams" are doing anyway, as they may have certain rulesets they have to design the car around. The lighter and easiest method is to just mount the wing to the trunklid and add a little bit of reinforcement as needed.
racepar1
09-04-2009, 10:10 AM
Every open wheel car mounts the front wing like that, usually through a few thin strips of carbon fiber.
No they don't. Not all open wheel cars have a carbon fiber monocoque chasis. Every formula atlantic car that I have ever seen had aluminum wingstays, NOT carbon. The F1 wingstays may be thin carbon fiber, but they are an integrated part of the nosecone structure.
Never seen a monocoque being over an inch thick from the ones I've seen up close, that's probably thicker than a door on a supersonic fighter...
Dude, I grew up around formula atlantic cars. I have seen a suspension arm punch a hole right through the side of our reynard 92h atlantic car. Maybe my memory is a bit foggy as it has been a while, but those structures are very thick and more complicated then simply a honeycomb core with some carbon layed over it.
I'm not saying you build the trunklid like a monocoque, just that it wouldn't require much carbon at all to add the neccessary strength, or even fiberglass.
On a bolt-on trunkild no it doesn't take a whole lot. On a thin racecar body panel though it will require a significant amount of re-enforcement.
It doesn't even matter what "race teams" are doing anyway, as they may have certain rulesets they have to design the car around. The lighter and easiest method is to just mount the wing to the trunklid and add a little bit of reinforcement as needed.
Sure it matters. If people who do this for a living are doing things a certain way you can bet there is a valid reason for it.
Once again, Racepar, you are an awfully opinionated fellow. You just like to argue here don't you?
race car this, race car that. Who cares what car your daddy owned when you were a kid. Prove to me that the average run of the mill aftermarket airfoil will produce enough downforce to deflect the hatch/trunk of my car so far as to have a negative impact on the performance abilities of said car. You won't and can't because it doesn't. Shutup and post inspiration.
On a bolt-on trunkild no it doesn't take a whole lot. On a thin racecar body panel though it will require a significant amount of re-enforcement.
No it wouldn't. The bending moment of inertia is increased by the shape of the support structure, it doesn't need much material to make it extremely strong in bending.
Sure it matters. If people who do this for a living are doing things a certain way you can bet there is a valid reason for it.
Usually it is done for other reasons than you'd encounter in a street/track car is my point.
I'm watching ALMS at Mosport right now, and it looks like quite a few cars have the wings mounted right to their rear quarter panels. This is probably done so they can easily gain access to the rear mounted refueling rig that the front engine cars are running.
You're still not really offering much to support your point besides "some race cars do it," without knowing really why they are doing it that way.
It's going to take LESS weight in almost every typical car/cage combination to just reinforce the trunk lid and mount it there.
racepar1
09-04-2009, 11:16 AM
Once again, Racepar, you are an awfully opinionated fellow. You just like to argue here don't you?
race car this, race car that. Who cares what car your daddy owned when you were a kid. Prove to me that the average run of the mill aftermarket airfoil will produce enough downforce to deflect the hatch/trunk of my car so far as to have a negative impact on the performance abilities of said car. You won't and can't because it doesn't. Shutup and post inspiration.
F*ck off a**hat! I'm not the ONLY one arguing here, Def is fully involved in the conversation too. Yet for some reason I don't here you bitching about him. We have obviously gone way off topic here and apparently you aren't keeping track of the conversation. It has already been established that a stock-style trunklid can support a wing easily without a ton of bracing. That was established a couple pages ago. I think Def is being overly critical of the wing set-up on the kognition s-14. I see nothing wrong with it and I seriously doubt that it cost any more then a couple pounds of weight, if any at all. It also saved a nice chunk of money and a little time. Carbon isn't cheap, aluminum IS cheap. I'm sorry if you don't like me bringing up basically my entire life that I spent working on my "daddy's" racecars. I brought it up because the conversation turned to formula car carbon monocoque structures. I happen to have more then a little experience with that. Excuse the f*ck out of me for mentioning that. The fact is that I have paid my dues and have every right to be opinionated, just as Def has. Neither one of us is backing down on our arguments and you are a first class douche for singling me out and ignoring his involvement.
racepar1
09-04-2009, 11:21 AM
No it wouldn't. The bending moment of inertia is increased by the shape of the support structure, it doesn't need much material to make it extremely strong in bending.
Usually it is done for other reasons than you'd encounter in a street/track car is my point.
I'm watching ALMS at Mosport right now, and it looks like quite a few cars have the wings mounted right to their rear quarter panels. This is probably done so they can easily gain access to the rear mounted refueling rig that the front engine cars are running.
You're still not really offering much to support your point besides "some race cars do it," without knowing really why they are doing it that way.
It's going to take LESS weight in almost every typical car/cage combination to just reinforce the trunk lid and mount it there.
The quarterpanels are a unibody structure, that proves what I am saying...... If it is such a great idea to mount the wing to the trunklid and re-enforce it then why didn't they do that? You are offering no more support to your opinion then mine. I am no engineer, but I know VERY well what is out there and how it is constructed. IMO you are being overly critical (typical engineer). That's enough of this. I do not agree with your opinion and I never will.
a_ahmed
09-04-2009, 11:37 AM
lol, entertainment, guys cmon stop fighting, we're not drift wanabe high schooler douchebags lol.
Group frickin *(@#(*@# hug!
racepar1
09-04-2009, 12:35 PM
lol, entertainment, guys cmon stop fighting, we're not drift wanabe high schooler douchebags lol.
Group frickin *(@#(*@# hug!
For realz......
I have no hard feelings towards Def, whose actual name I forget (I hate when that happens). I respect his opinions, he knows a great deal more then me about a more then a couple different subjects. As far as I am concerned he and I were having a conversation. Granted a completely off topic and un-necessary one. I do not however appreciate being singled out as the villan when I was certainly not the only person carrying on the conversation. I know I can be a PITA sometimes, but I don't ever remember being the only person in the thread that was guilty of it.
We need a better smiley selection, no group hug one...
:p
Haha, I didn't villanize you. I guess you can take it how you want to but the joke's on you.
Likewise, it is about time you would admit you are fully wrong that a car with a production trunk/hatch needs the wing to be connected to the frame.
I was merely pointing out how it always seems like it's Racepar's way or you're wrong and it gets you into stupid arguments over nothing. I was chuckling, as your posts normally make me do. That's all. :)
The quarterpanels are a unibody structure, that proves what I am saying...... If it is such a great idea to mount the wing to the trunklid and re-enforce it then why didn't they do that? You are offering no more support to your opinion then mine. I am no engineer, but I know VERY well what is out there and how it is constructed. IMO you are being overly critical (typical engineer). That's enough of this. I do not agree with your opinion and I never will.
I'm not the one who pissed in your Wheaties, so no need to bring that sort of attitude with me. If we are just having a conversation, no need to be rude. There are other engineers here, so no reason to call me "typical" just because I disagree with some minor aspect like airfoil mounting that is suddenly popular now across many forums.
As for the topic in question - the quarter panels on most cars are ~16 gauge steel - hardly what I'd call a "structure" of the car, as they serve as no load path as the car is designed.
I'm not being overly critical of just kognition's car/setup, I see it done all over the place now. BMWCCA Club Racers will hack up so much of their stock trunk to mount a little ~61" wing onto the sheet metal below the trunk lid that when it rains on track they end up with a water sloshing around in their spare tire well. Just doesn't make much sense to me.
Yes, I agree that in some cases it makes sense to mount the wing to something that can take higher loads, but that's not really the case with our cars or almost any other car I can think of IMO.
BTW - this is offtopic, but NRR is just a small group of enthusiasts, so I don't see the reason of stopping discussions just because it happens to go slightly off topic.
racepar1
09-04-2009, 01:11 PM
Haha, I didn't villanize you. I guess you can take it how you want to but the joke's on you.
None of these remarks sound very much like a joke to me:
You just like to argue here don't you?
race car this, race car that. Who cares what car your daddy owned when you were a kid.
Shutup and post inspiration.
Maybe you didn't mean to attack me, but it sure came off like you did.
I was merely pointing out how it always seems like it's Racepar's way or you're wrong and it gets you into stupid arguments over nothing. I was chuckling, as your posts normally make me do. That's all. :)
As I stated before, I have paid my dues. I EARNED that attitude through years of sacrifice and hard work. I am not infallible, I do not know everything, and if I don't know about what I am talking about I don't pretend that I do. I'm not some bandwagon kid with no racing backround sitting here telling people how to build their racecars. In the end this is a dead horse and I shall beat it no more. Some advice though....... Next time you try to make a joke you should probably make it a little more clear that you are not serious. One of these usually does the trick......
:p
racepar1
09-04-2009, 01:22 PM
I'm not the one who pissed in your Wheaties, so no need to bring that sort of attitude with me. If we are just having a conversation, no need to be rude. There are other engineers here, so no reason to call me "typical" just because I disagree with some minor aspect like airfoil mounting that is suddenly popular now across many forums.
I didn't mean for it to sound like I was giving you an attitude. The "typical engineer" thing was meant more playful then anything. Besides you are an engineer, you can't help but be critical. That is what you are schooled to do.
As for the topic in question - the quarter panels on most cars are ~16 gauge steel - hardly what I'd call a "structure" of the car, as they serve as no load path as the car is designed.
But it is a load bearing structure on a unibody car. The strong places of the 1/4 panels can take a great deal more load then a trunklid can. That is actually where I was planning on mounting my wing whenever I feel the need to take it off the decklid. No extra weight added. The only PITA is that I will probably have to remove the wing to open the decklid all the way but the car is not and hopefully never again will be my daily driver.
I'm not being overly critical of just kognition's car/setup, I see it done all over the place now. BMWCCA Club Racers will hack up so much of their stock trunk to mount a little ~61" wing onto the sheet metal below the trunk lid that when it rains on track they end up with a water sloshing around in their spare tire well. Just doesn't make much sense to me.
Yes, I agree that in some cases it makes sense to mount the wing to something that can take higher loads, but that's not really the case with our cars or almost any other car I can think of IMO.
I can definitely agree with you here. There are a lot of idiots out there. With a stock trunklid is is beyond stupid to mount the wing to the chasis. All I would really do is try to improve the stoppers a little. With a fiberglass decklid IMO you're better off taking the wing off the deck if you can. On a true street car you really can't do that though.
BTW - this is offtopic, but NRR is just a small group of enthusiasts, so I don't see the reason of stopping discussions just because it happens to go slightly off topic.
It seems to happen more often then not around here. I find it pretty enjoyable most of the time.
I can definitely agree with you here. There are a lot of idiots out there. With a stock trunklid is is beyond stupid to mount the wing to the chasis. All I would really do is try to improve the stoppers a little.
Not to say it goes for other chassis, but since we're talking about s-chassis I dunno bout your s13/s14 but my s14 trunk lid flexes. I'd rather mount the wing to the chassis rather than have the lid distort and change the angle of the wing at high speed.
sr20goofus
09-09-2009, 05:30 PM
Mounting the wing to the chassis may not actually be more or less effective in terms of getting the downforce applied to the rear wheels. But it is a more reliable and sturdy mounting location. My trunk skin is very loose and only attached to the skeleton around the edges, making it very flimsy, i wont even put heavy things on my trunk. I plan to mount my wing to the chassis just because my trunk isnt very strong by itself, id rather not worry about distorting the sheetmetal.
Matt93SE
09-09-2009, 05:49 PM
Considering mine is just held on with hood pins, I'd hate to see what happens if you start pushing/pulling on it!!
http://blehmco.com/pics/240SX/roll_cage/DSCN0110.jpg
Then again, I might replace the hood pins with some 1/2" bolts and brace the metal under the rear hood pins. then I can mount the wing to the trunklid right near those pins and then zip the bolts down with an electric impact and voila!
AceInHole
09-15-2009, 12:44 PM
Got linked to this today from a friend. Carbon fiber foam core wing that makes mine looks like crap:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1306900
Matt93SE
09-15-2009, 07:10 PM
Nice!! But $550 in parts and tools to make one, when you can buy a "professionally done" one for $800... I don't know if that much time is worth saving $350 to me... But that's just me.
Yes but you could do it in fiberglass much cheaper and it shouldn't be much heavier.
BTW the "ianscrawford" that guys speaks about is my friend who made his own aluminum wing that I posted earlier in this thread.
AceInHole
09-16-2009, 11:14 AM
I'm not really sure where you can get a decent CF wing for $800, but apparently the APR aluminum wings are way cheaper than I had been led to believe. Still, I can guarantee that I'll end up spending more money making my own wing (planning a dual element CF wing) by the time I finish experimenting.
Anyways, using cheaper sources for parts should lead to cheaper wing in the end. I didn't spend nearly as much on foam blocks, as I used hard foam insulation from Lowes (which hotwires very well). US Composites has cheaper prices for epoxy resin and fiberglass than I had spent on my current wing, so I'm planning on saving a bit of money there as well.
My budget for the next wing (large dual element using carbon fiber) is around $350, but I've already built my hotwire cutter, so that shaves about $50 off the total cost. I need to build a vacuum bagging rig as well, but I'm not expecting it to be very costly since it can be made from junkyard parts (old fridge compressor and a vacuum switch). Overall it should be lighter and more effective than my first wing, though.
a_ahmed
09-16-2009, 06:02 PM
I prepaid for the kognition 2nd gen wing... i think its a great bargain price for what it is.... I'm selling my gtc-200 and basically difference makes up for a bargain for a great wing. Scoring a gtc-300 i am looking at probably 700 at least used.... i dont have the resources, experience or time to make my own wing.
Matt93SE
09-16-2009, 08:08 PM
What's the size on that GTC 200 and how much shipped to Houston, 77082- commercial address.
my class rules are 48" max width and I think a 10" max chord length, which hardly anyone makes near that size.
APR makes a bunch with like 7.5" chord length, but damn that's teh suck if I don't use all of what's allowed by the rules.
I think a GTC-200 is 59.5" span.
Matt, you should just get an aluminum APR or the like wing with a 10" chord and chop it to 48". They have extruded channels in them so you can just tap them for the end plates(I'd suggest large ones here to maximize effective span).
Can you run multiple elements that fit within a 10" total chord length? That'd be your best bet on actually making some rear downforce.
Matt93SE
09-17-2009, 04:37 AM
Here's the STU rules on wings:
Each wing shall be mounted to trunk/deck lie with two mounting brackets. each mounting bracket shall attach to wing at a point that is less than 2" inboard of endplates. The wing, and the portion of the mounting brackets located externally to the trunk/deck lid, may only be reinforced by a diagonal strut having no aerodynamic effect, and/or by affixing the external parts of the brackets to internal parts of the brackets within the trunk/cargo area. The internal parts of the brackets may protrude through the deck lid to allow for the two parts of each bracket to be fastened together. The rear wing shall be mounted a min. of 6.0" below the peak of the roof. The mounting position will be measured between the highest points of the roof and wind. The trailing edge of the rear wing may be mounted no further rearward than the rear, center point of the approved bodywork. Removable OEM spoilers and wings are not permitted. Wings shall be a single element with a max chord length of 10.75" and max element width of 48". A wicker may be added provided it does not cause the wing/wicker assembly to exceed the stated maximum dimensions.
Thus.. It doesn't say anything about maximum endplate size (strange.... I know some of the classes list it.), but the wing itself is pretty limited in size compared to many other classes. still 10.75" x 48" is enough area to provide some good downforce at 60+.
The problem is finding a wing that's close enough to that 10.75" chord length to make it worth it. most are either 7.5" or so or 12".
And yes, I have to run a single element as well.
Umai Kakudo
10-15-2009, 01:13 PM
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1306900
Once the carbon fiber is laid up, you’ll want to let it cure. More heat is better and since this was done in the hot Atlanta summer, I used the track car as the make shift oven. I parked the car in the street with the windows in and saw temps of 130 for about 7 hours. After this the wing was hard as a rock.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg83/michael9218/Wing/FoamCompositeWing034.jpg
Now that is some creative home brew inspiration!
jmauld
10-15-2009, 06:40 PM
. I'm selling my gtc-200 and basically difference makes up for a bargain for a great wing.
Pictures of the wing? And how much shipped to 27513, I can probably get you a business address if that helps.
Speaking of C.F. and lightweight. Does Kognition still make the C.F. roof panels, and have you considered one of those?
BeerBringer
10-16-2009, 01:23 AM
Does anyone have a good setup for hot wireing a profile?
Umai Kakudo
10-23-2009, 01:06 PM
This thread is good inspiration . . . or de-motivation based on how much time and work it it takes (2+ years and still counting). Depends on what your level of optimism is.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=660756
End: Sub 2400 lbs. AIX 96 Mustang Cobra Project
Means: "continuing effort to get my car under 2500 lbs. (wet) I am reproducing all (100%) of my body panels in carbon fiber/nomex honeycomb." (in his home garage)
Lots of good info and pictures of how he does his wet layup/vacuum bagging.
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu265/pbird21/LiftfromBelow.jpg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu265/pbird21/FlareFinishedFitment2.jpg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu265/pbird21/FlareFinishedPostCure.jpg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu265/pbird21/FenderFlarePlug.jpg
Cool thread, thanks for the link. But god most of the posters on Corral are idiots...
2Fass240us
10-23-2009, 07:14 PM
My wheels AND my calipers...nice!
kenno470
11-28-2009, 02:21 PM
That NOS EVO is Dave Kern at Pikes Peak in 2009. He's a very talented driver and that EVO is rediculously fast. He even has his wife as his co-driver. If that's not love, I don't know what is.
I believe he's also an instructor at the ice driving school in Steamboat Springs this winter.
Ken
mufflerman
12-13-2009, 09:05 AM
Very impressive work on the Mustang. I still wonder why people race or lap live axle cars, but I am sure that one is very fast.
VQ35goofus
12-13-2009, 10:01 AM
almost all thunder and FF guys are live axle, they are pretty quick so i imagine they are doing something right. Maybe class rules dont allow full rear drivetrain/suspension changes, or they just prefer it for its simplicity or reliability.
Those AIX guys are fast as hell tho.
mufflerman
12-13-2009, 10:04 AM
I have never driven a live axle on the track, so I guess I shouldn't assume, I usually go around the guys with solid axles though:)
VQ35goofus
12-13-2009, 04:33 PM
wait till you on track with other racers....not fastish HPDE guys or claimed Time Attackers...but actual racers.
mufflerman
12-13-2009, 07:52 PM
wait till you on track with other racers....not fastish HPDE guys or claimed Time Attackers...but actual racers.
We have a group that we run at Trackmasters that we call "advanced racer", and most of the group is compiled of racers getting track time before the weekend, so I have run with real racers, the run group is far too fast for the "fatish" guys;). There are plenty of the different classes out on the track at any given time that we can go wheel to wheel with, last event we did at Infineon we had the Porsche Cup guys with thier own run group, the instructors were allowed to go out in thier group. Most were faster, but it was a good time to go around a few of them in my lowly Nissan:).
Matt93SE
12-13-2009, 08:45 PM
Porsche club doesn't allow me to go to their events anymore cause I piss too many of their $$$$friends$$$$ off. They tend to get pissed when they find I'm running 10 sec a lap faster than them in a car with 1/3 the power. ;)
The Supra guys did the same.... but worse yet, I was passing them in my Maxima.
I can't wait to get the car done and get my license so I can drive with the big boys.
2Fass240us
12-15-2009, 06:26 AM
Porsche club doesn't allow me to go to their events anymore cause I piss too many of their $$$$friends$$$$ off. They tend to get pissed when they find I'm running 10 sec a lap faster than them in a car with 1/3 the power. ;)
The Supra guys did the same.... but worse yet, I was passing them in my Maxima.That is stupid. Was attendance suffering because you were there? These days, I'd think clubs would take all the responsible HPDE-ers they could get.
mufflerman
12-15-2009, 06:35 AM
That is stupid. Was attendance suffering because you were there? These days, I'd think clubs would take all the responsible HPDE-ers they could get.
I agree, however I have been at some marque specific events where the Nissan wasn't favored, they looked down on the Miatas also. Some car clubs climb up pretty high to there pedastools.
CodyAce
12-17-2009, 07:38 PM
That is stupid. Was attendance suffering because you were there? These days, I'd think clubs would take all the responsible HPDE-ers they could get.
Happens all the time. Porsche club near me will only really allow me one event a year, and not their 'good events'.
Miata club on the other hand loves having different cars there.
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