How fast can a 240SX be?

[Colorado S14]

I am curious as to how fast a 240SX (S14 is what I am most interested in) can be. Just random speculating really. I followed Sasha Anis' build thread on Ziptied with his S14 that he raced in Canadian Touring Car. His final outright lap times around Mosport were pretty much right in between a Speed Touring car and a Speed GT car (he was around 1:26 vs 1:32/1:22). He did not mess around with suspension geometry or anything more substantial that I know of. And I think he still actually ran Z32 brakes on the car which had ~350whp I think.

Now if you took a S14 lets say, did enough weight loss to get to around 2500lbs. Altered the suspension to get better geometry, ran well tuned dampers, had enough power to never be wanting, 14"/13" brakes, 305/285 tires, etc. Where do you think we would find the 240 in the realm of lap times? Porsche cup car fast? Speed GT car?

[98koukile]

A car can be as fast as you want to make it. those seconds can cost tens of thousands of dollars each when you're competing at that level though, you cut 1/10ths off at a time. If you can get up to speed faster, stop later and harder, and turn in faster you will obviously cut a few seconds off but everything you just mentioned doesn't come cheap

[Cory]

I am curious as to how fast a 240SX (S14 is what I am most interested in) can be. Just random speculating really. I followed Sasha Anis' build thread on Ziptied with his S14 that he raced in Canadian Touring Car. His final outright lap times around Mosport were pretty much right in between a Speed Touring car and a Speed GT car (he was around 1:26 vs 1:32/1:22). He did not mess around with suspension geometry or anything more substantial that I know of. And I think he still actually ran Z32 brakes on the car which had ~350whp I think.

Now if you took a S14 lets say, did enough weight loss to get to around 2500lbs. Altered the suspension to get better geometry, ran well tuned dampers, had enough power to never be wanting, 14"/13" brakes, 305/285 tires, etc. Where do you think we would find the 240 in the realm of lap times? Porsche cup car fast? Speed GT car?

If you can get LapSim to work, you should be able to find out. Mosport is loaded on the free version.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/3589.htm

It didn't work on my Vista laptop.

[Matt93SE]

Are you talking stock-body, stock-chassis, or are you talking unlimited?

John Saurino has raced an S14 in GT3 for about 10 years.. I remember helping paint the body on it before runoffs about 7-8 years ago (before I knew what an S14 was....) He's had numerous GT3 championships and set many lap records in it.
(2005 GT3 lap record of 1:32.084 at Mid-Ohio)..
Looks like that's about track record for a Touring Car as well.
http://www.world-challenge.com/events/circuit.php?name=Mid-Ohio%20Sports%20Car%20Course

GT classes run about 5 sec faster.

It's worty to note he's using a N/A engine of some sort, although I'm not sure what. He could be running anything from Nissan under 3.0L. GT3 Rules spec everything from an L18 to a VG30E with various inlet restrictors and max weights allowed (maximum is 2200lbs, btw..). Based on that, that limits power in his class to probably about 300whp at the absolute highest. probably closer to 250hp.

It's also a full custom tube-frame car.. So in the end, the only thing making it a 240SX is the shape of the carbon fiber body panels.


Now... for reality....
What types of track times do you *think* you could get with an all-out engine build of whatever you wanted, and then throw on whatever suspension and aero package you wanted?? The sky is the limit with that method of thinking, even if you keep the stock chassis (significantly braced with a major roll cage of course)...

I have local friends with 600+HP SE20DETs.. I also see tooooons of 600+hp LSx engine builds...
Imagine one of those engines teamed with the chassis development of a GT car and whatever width tires and as much aero as you want to put on it to hold it to the ground...

Again.. sky's the limit. But is it still actually an S14 at that point?

[BeerBringer]

It can be VERY fast. It takes time and effort though. You need to strip it down to the bare chassie and spotweld it. There are alot of little brackets and such that can be cut away. When you buy parts you should consider weight vs function on EVERYTHING!
IC'thickness, brake rotor size, Bucket seat, Cage construction.
Be aware that some of the "light" parts avalible is not that light. Most Carbon fibre hoods are made out of layer up on layer of FRP. Way thicker than needed.
Do you realy need 14" rotors on such a light car?
Do you need 305 width tires? Can you even get them up to operating temperature?
And so on...


The Moat Exceed S14's is good examples of how far you can go with the S-chassie. 57 s times around Tsukuba as priviters is DAMN good.

Bill at Dent Sport Garage has an even more extreem setup then the Moat boys (S13 though).

Sasha's car looks so heavy compared to the ones mentioned above. Dit it even have a spot weldes chassie? I belive there is alot to gain from spotwelding on our soft chassies.

I belive you can get below 2500 lbs if you take weight saving seriously.

[Longfellow]

The entire bottom side of sashas car was flat and he ran a huge wing. I think he was also on 10" Toyo slicks on all 4 corners.

I remember reading about his S14 days, he would be faster in the corners than most of the cars, but he lacked the power that corvettes and M3's had.

He also tossed that car around like it was a toy.

[a_ahmed]

sasha ran rpf1s wrapped with 275/35/18 up front and 315/30/18 in the back.

Full underbody.

about 300whp or was it 350whp i cant recall.

GTC-300 wing.

Suspension was bings arms and stance 3 ways. No roll center adjuster/LCAs

Z32 brakes.

That was pretty much all there was to it. It wasn't that that stripped imho like say the dent build (hell no) so it was still on the 'heavy' side of things in contrast.

The lightest of the lightest has been groaner (or whatever his name? i think i just made up a name lol the guy with the vq30de swapped s13 coupe that was 1800lbs or something)... and kognition with their s14 which is hardcore weight reduction gone crazy.... of course again... there's bill from dent sport.

[Matt93SE]

You mean Broaner... He's been using that handle for about 12039845 years.. I knew him for years on the Maxima forums before he started playing with his S13..

Anyway, my S14 is at ~2500lb now and it's pretty basic. I still have stock KA engine, street exhaust (which weighs about 40lb!!!) a complete wiring harness and dashboard-although there's no guts under the dash- and am running Z32 brakes rear and 12" wilwoods up front. I could lose a LOT of weight still.

Not to mention that Z brakes are pretty darn heavy for the cars listed above. You can lose 10-15lb per corner by going to an aftermarket setup. They would also do better on track and last longer under race use.. but it's a matter of money.

[a_ahmed]

I'm really obsessed with weight, so I'm going all out... My thread went locked as it was a gajilion pages lol... but I started modifying my harness as well. It's incredible how much that crap weighs... I had a box worth 5lbs of wires... incredible... and I just began shortening everything. I still have tons to do. Under the dash.... all the sound deadening, fan, heater core crap, vents, etc.... added up to tons of weight too.

Since my race at cayuga... I've dropped over 50lbs from under the dash and surrounding area lol... and wiring... i should have photo'd all the scale/junk...

The car turns in better lol.. and accels slightly better and I can feel it.... I have another round of stuff to do... and then I'm going in the engine bay... and then cutting metal brackets that are not needed.

I also cut up the dash... it came down to 8lbs... it was like 15lbs initially if i recall. If I took the vynl and foam crap off I bet it would go down to like 3-4lbs or something.

People always say oh its only 5lbs.. oh its only 3lbs... but it all starts adding up its crazy...

[KA240SX808]

^Just read a thread yesterday about a guy redoing his S13 dash and removed all the Foam/Vinyl and it came out to 8lbs after he was done... I'll look for the thread.

Thread: http://zilvia.net/f/chat/273394-another-alternative-cracked-dash.html

[T-Rex]

How much money do you have?

Speed = cubic dollars.

[McCoy]

Speed = cubic dollars.This about sums it up.

Probably one of the cheaper examples would be Dent Motorsports 240sx, but I bet if they shared their total costs, it's still an aweful lot, and that is probably not including all their time and sweat.

[Colorado S14]

Yea, I am not saying tubing the front half or converting everything to CF or crazy race team stuff like that. I am just thinking a car with stock unibody, stiffened with a cage and maybe some stitch welding. Lightened to a point that to go farther would start costing money (I think that 2300-2500 is reasonable). FRP front fenders, rear over fenders or custom fenders to fit fat tires. Flat underbody with front and rear diffusers, GTC-300 wing. All rear upper arms, Z32 uprights, spherical bushings, reinforced subframe and lower arms, etc. Well sorted, quality suspension (Koni, AST, JRZ, etc.), big brakes with 2-piece rotors, cooling ducts, etc. 400-500whp from KA-T, SR, LSx.

I guess really what I am saying is off the shelf parts really. Think Sasha's car with more power, better brakes, and more time to tune the suspension. Obviously with money anything is possible, but keeping it quasi-reasonable......

[Matt93SE]

Then sure... you could go pretty damn fast with that.. but how fast wholly depends on how you set all of the above up. when you start talking about that many parts options and money and etc, it really depends on what your end goal is and how you set it up.

then there's the aero............. that's a completely different can of worms that changes the equations again.

But basically, you can go REALLY DAMN FAST with a reasonable suspension, aero, 500whp, and lotsa tire.

[McCoy]

But basically, you can go REALLY DAMN FAST with a reasonable suspension, aero, 500whp, lotsa tire, and lot and lots of seat time.
Let me fix that for you :)

[Colorado S14]

Lol, indeed. I am not even necessarily pointing myself down this path. More curiosity than anything else, interesting to watch races and go "man, if I added xxxx (and could drive that well) I would be that fast."

[a_ahmed]

How much money do you have?

Speed = cubic dollars.
rotfl, best statement of the year.

By the way (off topicish sorta), but a soon to be alternative to the ever so mighty gtc-300 is a wing kognition is coming up with. I spoke with em and he told me that the f1 williams wing he bought off of ebay (lol), he took the 10" cord and resized it to 12". He says it's far superior to his previous 'overpriced' gtc-300 setup. He plans to sell it for 800$ (sick deal for brand new no?).

[ecugrad]

With enough money, you can make a pig fly, backwards.

[Longfellow]

I guess really what I am saying is off the shelf parts really. Think Sasha's car with more power, better brakes, and more time to tune the suspension. Obviously with money anything is possible, but keeping it quasi-reasonable......

Look in the build section and find the guy in the middle east. He has an LS7 in a fully modded S14 and he is a few full seconds faster than 430 Scudas and GT3 RS's. And thats still on DOT R street tires. If he went full slicks it would be a even faster.

[Colorado S14]

Yea, I have seen Abdul's setup it is really pretty nice. But considering that the previously mentioned NA GT3 S14 was faster than Ferrari 360 Challenge cars at the Nationals that year........

[pash]

i realy like how reamemiya build his rx7 not to much hps a lot off balance cornering etc.

Ive seen S14 chasing porsche carreras just with a good driver and sr20det with no more than 300whp

[ecugrad]

Yea, I have seen Abdul's setup it is really pretty nice. But considering that the previously mentioned NA GT3 S14 was faster than Ferrari 360 Challenge cars at the Nationals that year........

Yeah but that NA GT3 motor is going to be a temperamental, expensive motor.

Abdul's LS7 not so much

[a_ahmed]

Oh yeah the dash I got it down to 8lbs without taking the foam off, I cut off the center console part, I cut off the bracing plastic brackets that you don't see behind, including vent extensions, I cut across from center to right so it's more like s15 dash (sort of lol).

I would take the foam off too but I'm not sure what to expect underneath. Could then rewrap it with something non-reflective/suedish sort of (shouldn't add weight), but that would take extra work.

Or could just build a thin aluminum dash of sorts...

[Colorado S14]

I just wish that an LSx made sense to me up here (Colorado, 5280ft elevation) but NA cars just lose so much power at altitude that I would feel like I was not getting my moneys worth. I bet a sweet LS6 or LS7 setup feels pretty incredible, and I would think that it is faster on the track than my KA-T even though my spool is pretty good. Gotta love low RPM torque!

[Bumnah]

Each owner has their own vision of what fast is.

For me "fast" is consistent times, light weight and reliability.

I've also spent 3 years wrenching on this Nissan. I'm tire of wrenching I'm ready to do some driving.

I've noticed heavily modified cars turn into super models. Can't drive it like this, can't drive it then. Can't use this type of gas. Needs to be warmed up, brakes need this. Tires need this. So it's a big balancing act. I also want to enjoy myself, so what if I'm not the fastest, I may be having the most fun.

Yeah I can pour buckets more of money into it, but it'll cost on how street able it is. It'll cost me hours and weekends of wrenching. Hours of tuning. And most importantly loss of a social life.

If I don't wreck this S13 on the track, I'm going to keep it. I'd love to do a full rebuild, new wiring harness, new paint yadda yadda yadda, but only after I have a second track car, so I can keep racing. The S13 will becoming a garage queen for a year two for me to build it, like I want it.

[ecugrad]

I just wish that an LSx made sense to me up here (Colorado, 5280ft elevation) but NA cars just lose so much power at altitude that I would feel like I was not getting my moneys worth. I bet a sweet LS6 or LS7 setup feels pretty incredible, and I would think that it is faster on the track than my KA-T even though my spool is pretty good. Gotta love low RPM torque!

You know you could turbo the LS1?

http://www.turbols1.com/

[a_ahmed]

400whp from an LS v8 is beastly... but 600whp from a twin turbo rear mounted setup = win, plus weight distribution in the back. That's what I'm thinking. However this is like a long long long time from now lol.

I love the idea of doing a rear mounted turbo personally.

These things can be taken to over 1000whp but yeah not in our chassis haha...

[Longfellow]

I just wish that an LSx made sense to me up here (Colorado, 5280ft elevation) but NA cars just lose so much power at altitude that I would feel like I was not getting my moneys worth. I bet a sweet LS6 or LS7 setup feels pretty incredible, and I would think that it is faster on the track than my KA-T even though my spool is pretty good. Gotta love low RPM torque!

I was up in the mountains last month and part of the road ran over 5000ft. I never noticed any difference really in my stock KA's S14.

[Matt93SE]

We went to new messico last summer and the wife's Element sucked baaaalllllzzzz up above 5000ft or so. It only had 160hp through a 4AT to begin with, but up there it just sucked. on the floor, I couldn't get it over 80mph and I effortlessly cruise at 85-90 around here.
We also burned a full tank (of 84 octane swill!) in about 150 miles. What sucks is gas stations are about 120 miles apart in that area!!

[Colorado S14]

Oh it is a big difference! I bought my car in Atlanta years ago and drove it back wanting to cry the whole way as the power drained away. For example, when I was NA my dynos up here with intake and exhaust were about 118whp. My friend has a 350Z with intake, plenum, exhaust and it put down 196! That is 25whp under normal for the 240 and probably 45whp under in the Z. The NA loss is big! Turbo thankfully does not lose as much but it does still lack when compared to sea level.

[Your Mom]

Each owner has their own vision of what fast is.

For me "fast" is consistent times, light weight and reliability.

I've also spent 3 years wrenching on this Nissan. I'm tire of wrenching I'm ready to do some driving.

I've noticed heavily modified cars turn into super models. Can't drive it like this, can't drive it then. Can't use this type of gas. Needs to be warmed up, brakes need this. Tires need this. So it's a big balancing act. I also want to enjoy myself, so what if I'm not the fastest, I may be having the most fun.

Yeah I can pour buckets more of money into it, but it'll cost on how street able it is. It'll cost me hours and weekends of wrenching. Hours of tuning. And most importantly loss of a social life.

If I don't wreck this S13 on the track, I'm going to keep it. I'd love to do a full rebuild, new wiring harness, new paint yadda yadda yadda, but only after I have a second track car, so I can keep racing. The S13 will becoming a garage queen for a year two for me to build it, like I want it.

I'm with you, i tried to make a nice show/dd/track car. it didn't work, i was stupid. but getting out and driving is just so much fun, I'm not a super anal person. I like things done right, i want to find that good power/ somewhat reliable and fast. the fast part is mostly up to me. you really have to drive to get good. build a car and expecting yourself to make it go fast doesn't happen. I made that mistake too.

I've taken quite a few porsches on track, c5 z06, evo's, sti's, and boy is that awesome to pass some $40k car but right now some of those stock cars are running while mine is torn apart. but fast to me is when i can continue to improve, car and myself.

Theres a local guy racing an STI with like 400+hp 245 slicks, alcons up front, decent suspension, decent areo. he runs low 1:20's or something at PIR. and i'm only a 1:29. thats kinda sad to me, hes pretty damn fast thou. but so much $$$$$, i don't think its even a concern for him.

Also have a friend with a RX7 thats really into time attacks, hes fast but man its so expensive, especially with a rotory. Track days are so worth it, in comparison cheap fun. I promise if i hit the lotto i'll build a 240 and go crazy with it. well maybe, i hope id be smarter than that.

monty is working on it thou! that ****er should be real fast pretty soon.

[Cory]

I could not seriously track a vette with my current income. That would be too much of a financial burden to crash.

The 240sx is much more disposable. I can crash it and swap over most of my stuff to another shell and probably fix many things I currently dislike about my car.

[Def]

I'm with the "swapping into a cheap shell/stockish S13 if I crash" camp. It's definitely not the fastest thing around, but it's fun modifying it, and I don't feel so bad when I drill a few holes into the core support or something like that.

Honestly, all the money I've got in my car might just buy me a relatively clean FD3S with a few mods, but I've had almost nothing truly break on my car, and I can't say the same thing for most the chassis that I would like to get into.

Vettes are super fast when setup right, but don't feel all that great to drive fast.

E36 M3s feel amazing to drive quickly, but cost too much money to get fast. Although they are pretty cheap these days, so they can go fast if you're willing to get into the ~$20-25k total invested. They almost all have headgasket problems when you put tons of track miles on them though.

An S13 with about $10-15k total into it over a few years is a pretty quick car out on the track really.

[a_ahmed]

What monstrocity is monty up to lol now that you've mentioned it.

[McCoy]

What monstrocity is monty up to lol now that you've mentioned it.
Nothing special... just throwing on the GT2876R turbo, whenever my back gets better. The overall feel of the car is how I like it, not sure how much that will change after adding an additional 150whp though. Maybe go back to a 275 width track tire next year... depending on how the last few track days this year go.

Then just get more track time... I know I'm still not at the confidence level I had with my sentra.

As others have said, I like the fact that the shell is fairly cheap and easy to replace. My liability is only $210 per year, parts are fairly cheap, and so on. There are alot of other cars I'd love to track, but looking at the cost to build the car to what I want and looking at how much I'd loose if I ball it up... I'll save that for when I have alot more disposable income.

[Matt93SE]

Same here..
My S14 is right at the $10k range, and I run same/better lap times than 90% of the porsches and Vettes at the local tracks. Sure, put a good driver in those cars and they'll smoke me, but I know I can always get beat by money and seat time.

The 240 is reliable, "quick", and mostly... FUN. There was an article that Randy Pobst wrote in a SportsCar a while back talking about just that...
He professionally races everything from Spec Miatas to Porsche GT Cup cars... He prefers the Miata-type cars to the big ballsy beasts anyway because they're just fun to drive. They're not nearly as fast, but there's something to be said about running balls out with your foot on the floor going INTO the corner and being able to hold it there while you're half-sideways and fighting for position 6" from another identical car where you know will beat you if you even think of lifting off the throttle.

I'm pretty much of the same opinion. It ain't fast, but it's FUN dammit!

[McCoy]

Same here..
My S14 is right at the $10k range, and I run same/better lap times than 90% of the porsches and Vettes at the local tracks. Sure, put a good driver in those cars and they'll smoke me, but I know I can always get beat by money and seat time.
It's always fun to watch a lead instructor being given the keys to a GT3, Z06 or even the Ford GT and watch how stupid fast they are on track compared to your average joe that ownes/tracks one of these cars.